Israel, Campus Climate, and the Future of the University w/ Jeffrey Blutinger
Jlife - OC Jewish Life
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43 views Mar 1, 2024
A conversation with Professor Jeffrey Blutinger about his academic talk getting disrupted by anti-Israel protestors and police having to evacuate him - and how this exemplifies wider themes within the modern university
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Transcript
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0:2323 secondsmiss Galilee 34 April 21st through May 12th at South Coast ratory tickets on s
0:3131 secondsatr.org that's scr.org now enjoy the podcast welcome to Jay life with Daniel
0:3939 secondsI'm your host Rabbi Daniel LaVine today we are joined by Professor Jeffrey blinger who is the director of Jewish studies at Cal State Long Beach just a
0:4848 secondsshort bio he received his bachelor's his Masters his JD and his PhD all at UCLA my Al it is always nice to welcome a
0:5757 secondsfellow bruan to the podcast Professor blinger welcome hi thank you for having me yeah it's it's yeah I I never went to the football games but yeah go Bruins
1:051 minute, 5 secondsneither did I they were always on Saturday so I was more basketball person you know poly was right there in the middle of Campus um so we'll hopefully
1:131 minute, 13 secondsget to discussing all of your research and all of your academic interests hopefully during the latter half but I wanted to start off with sort of what I
1:201 minute, 20 secondsguess this week you're famous for which is the uh incident at San Jose University probably four or five days
1:271 minute, 27 secondsago if you can sort of give a little bit of the background what were you doing there and then hopefully we can start to uh tease out wider Trends within the
1:341 minute, 34 secondscollege world yeah so this actually um I would been asked a few months ago if I would come up to San Jose State to talk
1:421 minute, 42 secondsto a class on literature of the Holocaust about the peace process you know and this is part was a part of a service learning project that the
1:491 minute, 49 secondsprofessor was doing uh and looking at uh the conflict between Israel and Palestine and how to where the conflict
1:571 minute, 57 secondscomes from and how to achieve peace so it was going to be a quick trip fly up Monday morning a week ago speak to the
2:052 minutes, 5 secondsclass fly home the same day and when I was picked up at the airport is when the director of Jewish studies told me that
2:112 minutes, 11 secondsthere was a problem that over the weekend uh the campus police had picked up chatter on the internet about my talk
2:212 minutes, 21 secondsthat a radical group out of Oakland had you know plastered my face all over the Internet whereas condemning the talk and
2:292 minutes, 29 secondsthat was calling on massive numbers of protesters to descend on the campus now the talk I was supposed to originally talk in the library but the campus
2:382 minutes, 38 secondspolice were concerned that the library that room only had one door and that if the protesters were outside then that we would be trapped in the the room so they
2:462 minutes, 46 secondsasked the organizers to move the talk so we moved it to the the actual classroom of the class and that buil the idea was
2:532 minutes, 53 secondsthat building has a secure entrance and um we'd only tell the students in the class ask where the talk would be otherwise everyone else would
3:023 minutes, 2 secondsknow that the class the talk had been moved without knowing where and in the meantime they considered the planed but originally been I would be you know dropped off at the library and work for
3:103 minutes, 10 secondsa couple hours and then maybe go to lunch and they would say no it's not safe for you to be in the library your people will recognize you it's not safe
3:183 minutes, 18 secondsto go to a restaurant in San Jose people will recognize you as I told the organizers I've never felt so seen and important um it's it's really a strange
3:273 minutes, 27 secondssituation I do you know 19th century you know Jewish history so um as soon as
3:353 minutes, 35 secondsthey announced to the class where the talk was within 30 to 60 Minutes the organizer of the protest were sending
3:423 minutes, 42 secondsout messages where my talk was going to be so now it was um the campus police sent an unmarked car to pick me up I was
3:503 minutes, 50 secondsat an apartment next to campus of the or um organizers they drove me to the building and then there were like three
3:573 minutes, 57 secondsofficers came into me the building with me and and as we approached The Stairway to go upstairs there were we could see three protesters in cafas coming through
4:054 minutes, 5 secondsthe secure door because it turns out to get into the building all you need is a pass key that any student has on their
4:124 minutes, 12 secondscard so it's not particularly secure so they sent an officer upstairs and they after a few minutes they came back down
4:194 minutes, 19 secondsand they said okay follow us and so we uh I it's you know walk down a short Corridor and then a right turned down a
4:274 minutes, 27 secondslong Corridor and the whole length of the way both oror lined with protesters screaming at me one of them held out a sign to block my path and I wasn't going
4:354 minutes, 35 secondsto I wasn't going to dodge and so last moment they they yanked it back and didn't hit me with it and then I went into the classroom and um so in the
4:444 minutes, 44 secondsclassroom there two doors to the classroom on that hallway uh and the police were kind of keeping the back
4:514 minutes, 51 secondsdoor free of protesters as a way of getting in and out and then there was an officer at the door to the class and the professor was only admitting Adit uh
5:005 minutesenrolled students and a lot of screaming and the provos dropped by because I actually knew the Provo know the provos when he used to be a professor he used to be
5:085 minutes, 8 secondschair of geography here at Cal State Long Beach so we CH nice to catch up with him he's a really Vincent delc Casino really great guy and So
5:165 minutes, 16 secondseventually got started and I think um uh Leah the professor whose class it was you know sted to speak and there was a
5:235 minutes, 23 secondslot of screaming from the uh outside and then I got up and I started to talk to the class and I just was going to talk about sort of where the conflict comes
5:335 minutes, 33 secondsfrom why it's not a conflict from time immemorial it actually begins in the 20th century it's not a conflict that
5:405 minutes, 40 secondsbegins with the Zionist movement and um then I was actually just getting to the part where the conflict comes from which
5:475 minutes, 47 secondsis a fight over who gets to farm land and peasants who were displaced in the decade before World War I and that's
5:555 minutes, 55 secondswhen all hell broke loose but um so I I was going to talk about sort of you know what the core issues of the conflict are
6:046 minutes, 4 secondsyou know what call the 1948 portfolio of issues and then the 1967 portfolio and the various efforts to find a peaceful
6:126 minutes, 12 secondsresolution and how agonizingly close the parties reached in 2000 in in January
6:196 minutes, 19 secondsFebruary 2001 in which they had tentative they were really really close on almost all the issues to resolve the conflict yeah so just in case I mean
6:286 minutes, 28 secondsjust just to highlight for listeners in case it's not clear from everything you're saying you are not coming in here with a uh staunch Zionist you know
6:366 minutes, 36 secondsIsrael is right and rahah you know what they're doing in Gaza is is just you are really coming in with both the academic and also pedagogical background of
6:456 minutes, 45 secondssaying okay let's let's observe this from a historical perspective here are you know both sides here's what the Israelis have wanted here's what the
6:516 minutes, 51 secondsPalestinians have wanted and so you know even so this didn't deter any of the uh people outside and in fact that was the
7:007 minutesobjection because I was calling for peace between Israel and Palestine I was talking about a peaceful resolution of
7:087 minutes, 8 secondsthe conflict between Israel and Palestine I was talking about how Israelis and Palestinians could reach
7:147 minutes, 14 secondspeace and on almost all the issues we actually know what the final agreement will look like and if if you want want
7:227 minutes, 22 secondsto look it up go Google taba taba talks 2001 taba spelled taba uh you know we all familiar with
7:307 minutes, 30 secondsthe collapse of the Camp David 2 but the negotiators kept it up and they actually came very very close to taba uh
7:377 minutes, 37 secondsincluding issues of Jerusalem including boundaries between Israel and Palestine including like the Temple mount it they
7:467 minutes, 46 secondsactually came the the only issue that they couldn't reach resolution on and it's the toughest issue is the 1948
7:547 minutes, 54 secondsrefugees and their descendants because that's not a compromisable issue one party will have to concede either um
8:038 minutes, 3 secondsIsrael will allow the 1948 refugees and their descendants to come in which in case it will cease to exist it will become a bational state or uh the 1948
8:128 minutes, 12 secondsrefugees and The Descendants will have to take some alternate compensation you can't have a there's no halfway point on that it's the only one that's an either
8:208 minutes, 20 secondsor um and that's why it's the toughest issue to solve and that's what I was going to talk about but the the protesters it's funny you said I I'm not
8:278 minutes, 27 secondsasign in a way I am was a question I was sorry sorry I don't mean that you're not come in with a Zionist agenda you're not coming in with waving Israeli Flags I'm
8:368 minutes, 36 secondsnot calling for you know a Jewish State on both sides of the Jordan River it's not a Maximus it's not like there's no such thing as Palestine the Palestinians
8:438 minutes, 43 secondsshould be uh go leave you know I'm that's not my position at all um it's funny I was asked are you know are you a Zionist I say well it's a strange
8:518 minutes, 51 secondsquestion to ask because in some ways Zionism ended in 1948 when Israel became a state that was the goal of the Zionist movement to create the of Israel you
9:009 minutesknow now that the state is created it doesn't that mean that it's no longer a movement I mean you have religious Zionism which sees you know the goal is
9:099 minutes, 9 secondsa Messianic achievement of Messianic end so that's an ongoing you have cultural Zionism but um for the most part Zionism
9:179 minutes, 17 secondsachieved its end in 1948 so what does it mean to be a Zionist now when there is a state of Israel you like yeah you know I think that this I think that the largest
9:259 minutes, 25 secondsJewish community in the world should continue to exist um you know so it should not be destroyed
9:329 minutes, 32 secondsbut uh that makes so the argument was he's a Zionist he wants a state of Israel to exist um because they want
9:409 minutes, 40 secondsthey don't want they they're not calling for peace it's the Peace of the Dead um they want Israel to be abolished uh they're kind of agnostic on what should
9:479 minutes, 47 secondshappen to all the Jews there whether killed or expelled um well it's a sort of historical fallacy I mean I've I've confronted this on campus you know just
9:559 minutes, 55 secondsI've been living on a college campus between undergrad grad school and now uh working for hillo and also adjuncting for the last you know 15 years at this
10:0310 minutes, 3 secondspoint and it really is this sort of fallacy of Jewish history that one all modern Israelis descend from Europe and
10:1010 minutes, 10 secondsso cut out the 55% of of Jews that come from the Middle East and mrai Jews you know that's a whole separate question um
10:1710 minutes, 17 secondsbut for them they really have bought into this narrative that Zionism is just colonialism and if Zionism is just
10:2410 minutes, 24 secondscolonialism then if you punch back hard enough as you know happened in Algeria you know then the colonists just leave
10:3210 minutes, 32 secondsand and they go back home and so there there's sort of this this gray area view in a lot of you know staunch anti-d inist heads that you know if things get
10:4010 minutes, 40 secondsbad enough Jews will sort of go back to where they came from and for those who are just listening I'm putting that in air quotes because of course where they
10:4710 minutes, 47 secondscame from have almost all kicked the Jews out whether we're talking about ashkanazi Jews or misaki Jews and so yeah they haven't exactly figured that part out yet yeah and I think the
10:5610 minutes, 56 secondsAlgeria is really interesting because I think it is the Algerian model is and I don't think it's not just activists on campus I think that's the model for
11:0411 minutes, 4 secondsHamas Hamas and Hezbollah believe that if they just massacred enough people if they just hurt Israel enough then
11:1311 minutes, 13 secondssomehow you know that Israel would invade and they'd lose and then they all just going to go away and that's the it's like we're gonna you know it worked
11:2011 minutes, 20 secondsin Algeria so it's going to work here and they don't they don't understand the reality that it's not going to happen
11:2811 minutes, 28 secondsthat that that the you know as you said 55 57% of Israelis are of Middle Eastern origin um almost most Israelis whe
11:3811 minutes, 38 secondseither of Europe North Africa the Middle East came as refugees um the whole settler Colonial thing I had don't slide on that um It's Complicated um but the
11:4811 minutes, 48 secondsbecause of course there were colonies right you had you know the pal you know the Jewish colonial society in the 1860s
11:5511 minutes, 55 secondsright they had settlements so if you have settlers and you had colonies and settler colonialism and it has aspects of it right you know the British is the
12:0412 minutes, 4 secondscolonial British is the colonial power Britain is supporting Zionism for about 20 years from the balford Declaration up
12:1112 minutes, 11 secondsto the white paper but um unlike when you look at any other settler colonial state whether the United States or
12:1912 minutes, 19 secondsCanada Australia um they're all people the the the the colonial power
12:2512 minutes, 25 secondsencourages members of its own state to come settle for economic and political reasons and it's an arm of the state um
12:3412 minutes, 34 secondsZionism was not an arm of a colonial power uh they weren't representing most of the Jews who moved to Palestine were and came after the formation were
12:4212 minutes, 42 secondsrefugees um and what does it mean to go back to the ancestral Homeland um I don't want to get the whole indigeny
12:5012 minutes, 50 secondsissue um but because the thing is it's like everyone say well you know Palestinians are indigenous um indigen
12:5712 minutes, 57 secondsis a social construct just just like nationalism uh how long do you have to live in a place to be indigenous how long do you have to be gone from a place
13:0513 minutes, 5 secondsto be no longer indigenous so indigeny sorry it's a rhetorical device sure yeah and and I'll just say on that
13:1413 minutes, 14 secondsI mean what one of the things I always tell students um and then we can uh you know transport ourselves back to San San Jose last week is that you can't
13:2213 minutes, 22 secondsunderstand Zionism without understanding colonialism but if you only understand colonialism there's no chance you're going to be able to understand Zionism
13:2913 minutes, 29 secondswhere exactly what you said both Kamas I believe in the PLO so um the original Yas Arafat or mm Abbas sort of
13:3713 minutes, 37 secondsintercessor afterwards a a great book to just understanding I think how a lot of anti-israel activists view this conflict
13:4613 minutes, 46 secondsthere's a book called The Savage war of Peace that's about um the Algerian Revolution against the French there and it sort of again describes this uh
13:5413 minutes, 54 secondsclassic Playbook of anticolonialism of you make things really really really really bad and then things get worse even for you because the French you know
14:0214 minutes, 2 secondspush down even harder and then one day out of nowhere it's almost sort of Messianic thinking they all get up and leave which is of course what happened
14:0914 minutes, 9 secondsduring the French Revolution and I really do think and and I say sadly both sadly for for Israel but also sadly for the Palestinians because God knows this
14:1714 minutes, 17 secondsisn't this isn't the Playbook that's gonna actually help them get peace they are thinking that you know there's going to be these you know Spike and violence
14:2514 minutes, 25 secondsand these Spirals and it's going to get worse and then you're going to reach some unknown threshold and then it's gonna you know okay all the zionists are going to pick up one day and leave which
14:3414 minutes, 34 secondsof course for for those who have a good understanding of Zionism and Jewish history and just Jewish sociology that that of course is not going to happen
14:4114 minutes, 41 secondsand so they're sort of digging in just you know the complete wrong direction here um so we have that we have a book
14:4914 minutes, 49 secondsrecommendation for listeners so let's go back so add if you've never seen the movie The Battle for alers brilliant brilliant film about
14:5714 minutes, 57 secondslaying had how that whole process worked as far as I know the only film simultaneously used by the US
15:0415 minutes, 4 secondsgovernment and terrorist groups as a training film so the US government uses a training film on how not to respond to
15:1215 minutes, 12 secondsan Insurgency and terrorist groups use it because it shows how to create a terrorist cell and Carry Out terrorist actions really really powerful film
15:2115 minutes, 21 secondssorry that is fascinating um okay so you're here to give this talk you are uh trying to advocate for peace based off of your academic
15:2915 minutes, 29 secondsunderstanding of the last 100 or so years of of history and all the tension points you come in the outside is lined
15:3615 minutes, 36 secondswith uh protesters it's loud um what happens then okay so um as long as the door to the classroom was closed I could
15:4515 minutes, 45 secondsbe heard um I have a very loud voice I been told I do not have an interor inner an interior voice I just sorry but once
15:5415 minutes, 54 secondsthe door every time the door opened the loud the noise became so loud the stud students couldn't focus and protesters kept trying to come into the room there
16:0216 minutes, 2 secondswas a tall woman who's um either is a professor or works for another professor who was protesting me um and that I
16:1016 minutes, 10 secondsfound I didn't know later until later who was in the hall but the people in the hall included professors and one administrator an associate
16:1816 minutes, 18 secondsDean um who were trying to deny me academic freedom it's a very anyhow so they kept trying to come in um and then
16:2816 minutes, 28 secondsfour students got up and left and they had been on the left side of my was speaking and they always kind of looked they didn't when you're teaching a class
16:3616 minutes, 36 secondsyou can kind of see how students looked at you and they always they looked angry at me which I didn't know why because I'd never met them before anyhow they all got up and left and then about two3
16:4416 minutes, 44 secondsminutes later um a police officer came up to me and said we're evacuating you from the classroom um and at the time I didn't
16:5416 minutes, 54 secondsknow why um and so I had to like disconnect my computer and get my my bag and I come out the door and there were four officers one on each side of me two
17:0217 minutes, 2 secondsone in front one behind and two on one on the left one on the right and they kind of created a space between me and the protesters behind me so I couldn't
17:1117 minutes, 11 secondssee what was happening behind me because where I was had to leave I think someone was pushing the officer behind me because he kept falling into me anyhow
17:1917 minutes, 19 secondsso then I was down the corridor and out the building and then my understanding was they evacuated the other uh faculty and students from the room right after
17:2717 minutes, 27 secondsme and then I was driven in an unmarked car back to police headquarters in the campus and then i' but that at that
17:3417 minutes, 34 secondspoint I heard that they were had been going to bring in the San Jose police to clear the CL the
17:4117 minutes, 41 secondscorridor and um but that we know what happened that sort of prompted the emergency evacuation I I don't I believe
17:4917 minutes, 49 secondsthe as far as I can tell the the the course of events were and I only know this from news reports there was a
17:5617 minutes, 56 secondsprofessor Jewish Professor coming to my talk who walk the same Gauntlet of protesters he's well known to the the protesters and they were screaming at
18:0518 minutes, 5 secondshim and he took out his camera to film them and one of the protesters tried to block his cell phone and um in the co
18:1318 minutes, 13 secondsand then what happened next is I I mean I've watched the video and it's all very blurry to me though the LA Times simp Le said Professor blinger chose not and
18:2218 minutes, 22 secondssaid he had no comment on the video but I didn't know what I don't know what happened in the video to me it's very unclear anyhow heard screaming that he hit the student and that he twisted the
18:3118 minutes, 31 secondsstudent's arm anyhow at that point there was a lot of uproar in the hall um the police wanted to clear the hall and um
18:4018 minutes, 40 secondsthey didn't have the forces to do so the protesters weren't going to leave and at that point they had called in the San Jose and what the the univ the president
18:4918 minutes, 49 secondsof the University who called me five days later I got a call from our president on our campus the next day s Jose State
18:5918 minutes, 59 secondswhere I was evicted from their campus called me five days later just put that out there uh she said that they were
19:0619 minutes, 6 secondsconcerned that bringing in the San Jose police if they had to clear the corridor would create a Calamity she called it in the corridor and so in order to get the
19:1519 minutes, 15 secondsprotesters out of the building the idea was to remove me and the students and then if I and the students were no longer in the building the protested
19:2219 minutes, 22 secondswould no longer have a reason to remain and so in fact then left the building but they did so at the cost of my academic freedom and the academic
19:3019 minutes, 30 secondsfreedom of the students so that is my understanding but I don't you know from what the president uh of that University told me and what
19:3819 minutes, 38 secondsI've read in the Press um so since then then I was uh driven off- campus and the
19:4519 minutes, 45 secondsairport um and um the the situation there has been quite bad since it's and the faculty there have it much much
19:5319 minutes, 53 secondsworse um I don't I can't really I don't want to talk about the health issues that the Prof Professor whose class I was speaking in had but they're quite
20:0120 minutes, 1 secondsevere and she's not in a good physical state right now and her both inters yeah she had had a hard what do we oh wow
20:1020 minutes, 10 secondsokay I did not realize on Saturday on Saturday yeah wow okay yeah that is crazy so just just zooming out what do
20:1920 minutes, 19 secondswe what do we make of this because I know you know listeners are well aware that I you know I'm I'm at UCI I teach at UCI I'm part of Hill at UCI I won't
20:2720 minutes, 27 secondsgive any names but I know also a whole series of academic talks have gotten disrupted at UC Irvine to the point where now the school is actually not
20:3520 minutes, 35 secondseven really trying to host all of these Nuance academic discussions about Israel and what's been happening in the war in Gaza um from from my perspective it's
20:4420 minutes, 44 secondsobviously a shame because you know I I sort of still have with me the sort of idealistic view of Academia and the university I mean on a personal level
20:5320 minutes, 53 secondsthe University was a time of great intellectual and ideological exploration for me and I specifically in undergrad
21:0021 minutesrelished the opportunities to go to both classes and also academic talks with people that I disagreed with on a whole host of religious and political views
21:0821 minutes, 8 secondsand and honestly those were some of my uh most cherished memories of getting coffee with professors that I disagreed with and just you know the amount of
21:1621 minutes, 16 secondslearning and back and forth that is obviously not the case now but I still hold a little bit of that idealism and I would think if you were to tell somebody
21:2421 minutes, 24 secondsin the abstract that there's going to be this you know obviously this current iteration of the Israeli Palestinian conflict the people and the institution
21:3321 minutes, 33 secondsthat is the most important in trying to handle this in terms of educating the Next Generation and being able to have these
21:4121 minutes, 41 secondssort of nuance conversations where let's try to understand both sides that should be the university whereas it seems like the university has become and I'm
21:4921 minutes, 49 secondscurious if you agree or disagree with this characterization actually the most toxic place to be in in our society trying to talk about Israel what do you
21:5721 minutes, 57 secondsthink happened is this sort of you know without trying you know without me sounding like you know I'm an old 80-year-old you know right- Winger
22:0322 minutes, 3 secondsthat's talking about the kids my yeah I mean to some extent that's that's how I feel sometime because you know on the one hand you know when I'm facing the
22:1122 minutes, 11 secondswider Community my my intuition is always to to defend Academia and the university obviously not every idea that comes out of it but the system I think
22:2022 minutes, 20 secondsis generally a good one of you know freedom of speech academic freedom you know this you know this sort of experimental lab where students go for
22:2822 minutes, 28 secondsfour years and they can you know meet people different than them and get their ideas challenged but it seems like in actuality you know whenever I'm internal
22:3522 minutes, 35 secondsto the university it seems like at at worst there's sort of or sorry at best there's sort of this endless bureaucracy
22:4322 minutes, 43 secondsthat doesn't really know how to handle these uh tougher issues and at worst it actually seems like a lot of the suppression of ideas is actually coming
22:5022 minutes, 50 secondsfrom some professors in the University itself so I'm just throwing you know a schmorgasburg of questions onto you but sort of what do you make of this is this
22:5822 minutes, 58 secondsis this new you've obviously been in Academia for a while and sort of what's your Vantage Point here okay so yes it's
23:0623 minutes, 6 secondsnew I would say I I first I want to say that um it's not a majority what we're see the problem is not coming from a majority of
23:1423 minutes, 14 secondsFaculty um I would make it I would say you know if you look at the demograph political demographics of Faculty most
23:2123 minutes, 21 secondsfaculty are liberal right and I mean that liberal like liberal they they support higher education they support
23:3023 minutes, 30 secondsacademic freedom they want peace between Israel and Palestine they're classic just liberals and they don't have a pro
23:3923 minutes, 39 secondsthey're not the ones suppressing speech um what they're doing is what the group
23:4523 minutes, 45 secondswhat we seeing is a radical group it's relatively small on campus but it's very
23:5323 minutes, 53 secondsvocal uh and this is a radical group um and it's radical in a whole bunch bunch of issues not just Israel Palestine but
24:0124 minutes, 1 seconduh they want to shut down any disc any discussion that isn't anti-israel uh that isn't
24:0824 minutes, 8 secondspramas um and they are uh and we're seeing this AC uh particularly since
24:1624 minutes, 16 secondsOctober 7th since the massacres so you see what happened at Berkeley yesterday when an Israeli speaker uh was supposed
24:2324 minutes, 23 secondsto speak in a building the building was surrounded uh they broke Windows they tried to force their way in past the police the police uh canceled the guy
24:3224 minutes, 32 secondstalk the Israel's talk and this is of course you know the the irony Berkeley is that was the center of the Free Speech movement of you know allowing
24:4124 minutes, 41 secondsspeech that you specifically disagree with and so the the flop in 50 years is is fascinating sorry to cut you off there no no but but the point is it's
24:4824 minutes, 48 secondsfree speech for me but not for thee and um that is I have the right you know so if you're anti-israel there it's
24:5624 minutes, 56 secondsfine you can talk anywhere on campus and there won't be a problem there won't be Pro there won't be counter protesters there won't we have the the current
25:0425 minutes, 4 secondsapartheid wall right I if I look to my left I can see the apartheid wall out the window this week um they there have
25:1125 minutes, 11 secondsbeen probably a dozen uh anti-israel speakers on our campus um since the
25:1825 minutes, 18 secondsmassacre there have been multiple rallies uh one student group U made the New York Times because the day after the Massac the day after the massacre they
25:2625 minutes, 26 secondsposted an image of a flyer calling for uh an anti-israel rally uh showing um a
25:3325 minutes, 33 secondsparag glider yeah we that in departments at ECR Vine as well and it was posted just outside my building you know uh
25:4025 minutes, 40 secondsthat was and no there was no one interrupted their talk no one uh stopped them from speaking um we've had no the
25:4825 minutes, 48 secondsthe first pro Israel or uh talk we had was last Wednesday and I needed police
25:5625 minutes, 56 secondsprotection right um the un uh I got you know the uh originally the University Police said well you can pass 120 well we station a security officer if you
26:0426 minutes, 4 secondspass $120 in overtime and then the University president called me that night and said don't worry there'll be an officer there you don't have to pay
26:1126 minutes, 11 secondsfor it um and actually it turned out fine no there wasn't any uh uh no one came and it was quite peaceful and I felt a little embarrassed I made all
26:2026 minutes, 20 secondsthis thing about getting a police officer but it was two days after what happened in Santa San Jose and so you know I looked to what do I do I'm
26:2826 minutes, 28 secondsbringing in a speaker Amy Elman next month who's going to talk about violence against women in the Hamas Israel conflict you know I have to worry about
26:3726 minutes, 37 secondsour safety um you know uh I don't have that no other group has to worry about that but Jews do and it's a campus after
26:4626 minutes, 46 secondscampus and the so the question is why doesn't the administration why does en campus Administration more broadly
26:5326 minutes, 53 secondsacross the US protect the academic and Free Speech rights of Jews and it's because they're they don't they're
27:0127 minutes, 1 secondconfused and they don't know how to deal with it um I Heard a professor say you know last fall you know if you
27:1127 minutes, 11 secondshad um masked protesters with TIY torches going through campus chanting Jews will not replace us Administration
27:1927 minutes, 19 secondsknows exactly what that is that's anti-Semitism that's racism that's wrong they're out they'll stop they they'll be they they can't stop them protest well
27:2727 minutes, 27 secondsthey can stop the torch is burning but you know but they know what to do if the same people were chanting Zionist will not replace us now the administration
27:3427 minutes, 34 secondsgets very confused they don't know what that is they don't know what to do with it and um and and in many ways it
27:4427 minutes, 44 secondsUniversity administrations more broadly not specifically on our camp specifically for our campus but more broadly have hobbled themselves because
27:5227 minutes, 52 secondsyou know I'm a big believer in Dei diversity equity and inclusion and Dei will give you the tools to do with
28:0028 minutesshould give you the tools to deal with anti-Semitism um and attempts to suppress
28:0728 minutes, 7 secondsspeech but too often Dei just becomes e equity and we have to support
28:1428 minutes, 14 secondsdisempowered groups only and Jews are not disempowered and therefore they don't get protected so we lose the diversity we lose the inclusion and the
28:2328 minutes, 23 secondsresult is that administrations have hobbled themselves they don't know how to deal with it and so the idea is well we don't
28:3128 minutes, 31 secondswant to harm the students and so we'll let them it it's you know if we have to balance the rights of Jews to speak and the rights
28:4028 minutes, 40 secondsof students to um uh not be arrested for uh for violating other students rights well we're going to come down on not
28:4828 minutes, 48 secondsarresting students and and if Jews lose their freedom of speech well it's it's it's just a small thing and this might
28:5628 minutes, 56 secondsbe a very pessimistic what I'm about to say so again feel free to to push back you know if you disagree it it seems like one of the interesting things we're
29:0429 minutes, 4 secondsseeing with universities I mean you know obviously University prices are going up right I'm not talking about the CAL States just in general in the country especially even at the CAL States yeah
29:1229 minutes, 12 secondsalso Public Schools right tuition is going up universities are hiring more administrators and more bureaucrats that are not sort of academically trained
29:2129 minutes, 21 secondsthat also coincides with what I almost call the the commercialization of univers ities to the extent where a lot of the students are almost becoming the
29:3029 minutes, 30 secondsproduct just like if I go to a restaurant and I don't like the food it doesn't make a difference if the chef comes out and says no actually this is a
29:3729 minutes, 37 secondsgreat stake if I'm the customer you know the sort of uh you know caveat you know well the customer's always right universities have have almost seemed to
29:4629 minutes, 46 secondsto shift at least in my analysis from viewing education as the final product to students as the final product and so
29:5329 minutes, 53 secondsas long as we keep the students happy and as long as enrollment and courses is up and as long as we don't make national news for bad things okay you know all is
30:0130 minutes, 1 secondwell let's let's try not to you know worry about you know protecting Everybody's Free Speech rights or the fact that you know again there's there's
30:0830 minutes, 8 secondsa lot of different ways to to frame this um but I think it's definitely connected to a lot of The Wider more systemic problems with the university um and and
30:1730 minutes, 17 secondsand I think also I mean I I obviously have a very vested interest in this you also obviously have a vested interest in bringing back I think the the Humanity's
30:2630 minutes, 26 secondslarge back to a state of prestige I mean it's it it's sad when I talk to people that are not at the University about the
30:3430 minutes, 34 secondsuniversity and just I mean obviously Republicans and conservatives you have about 50% of the country you know before we even start the conversation that
30:4230 minutes, 42 secondsthinks you know Humanities in the university is just a bunch of you know liberal gabg you know whatever let's put that aside but even among you know
30:4930 minutes, 49 secondsDemocrats and liberals you know it's it's shifting and you know when I talk to to people they say well I would never
30:5630 minutes, 56 secondswant my kid to go to a university and not study computer science or Premed you know if they do that fine you know those those fields haven't been infected but I
31:0531 minutes, 5 secondsmean what would you say because i' I've you know had this experience a lot you know as a hill Rabbi I get a lot of H calls from a perspective parents of of
31:1331 minutes, 13 secondshigh schoolers you know who say you know my son or my daughter really wants to come to you know insert school here um they're really interested in you know
31:2231 minutes, 22 secondshistory or political science or English I'm afraid to let them because I don't know if they're gonna you know end up coming out some you know brainwashed you
31:3031 minutes, 30 secondsknow blah blah blah what would you sort of say to that or what or the bigger question what what needs to be fixed so that I no longer get those phone calls
31:3931 minutes, 39 secondsoh god well this that's a that's a a huge problem um there's so many different elements of it so first of all
31:4731 minutes, 47 secondsum the idea that one shouldn't ma major in the humanity that you'll end up being uh you know if you get it I I I my ba is
31:5431 minutes, 54 secondsin English Lit you know I got an English Lit degree in 1984 and I remember being told back in the early ' 80s you know what can you do with an English Lit
32:0232 minutes, 2 secondsdegree you know say do you want fries with that right now then now about 20 years later they start oh you will be a baristo you know that's you know you can
32:1032 minutes, 10 secondsonly get a job at Starbucks yeah I I got a job at a major law firm with my English law degree as a lawyer making a
32:1732 minutes, 17 secondslot of money before I decided to go back into Academia but you can make a lot you know the fact is that
32:2432 minutes, 24 secondsum um too often in this is a really really this is this is not new this goes back half a century or longer people
32:3232 minutes, 32 secondshave a tendency to think of universities as vocational schools right what's the most popular major business it's all magical thinking
32:4232 minutes, 42 secondsright if I get a degree in business then a business will hire me that's not the way it works Business Degree trains you how to open your own business how to be
32:5032 minutes, 50 secondsan entrepreneur not how to get hired by a business you know it doesn't you know you can
32:5732 minutes, 57 secondsif you you end up not being able to how do you get the job that hasn't been invented yet you know think about right
33:0533 minutes, 5 secondsnow everyone's focusing on AI right five years ago how many people were focusing on AI I mean it did exist
33:1333 minutes, 13 secondsin a form how what degree what would you have studied five years ago in order to get that job now it
33:2133 minutes, 21 secondsdidn't exist then now it does if you need um training in how to think outside
33:2733 minutes, 27 secondsthe box to be able to adapt and take advantage of opportunities that don't exist yet you won't get that if you go
33:3633 minutes, 36 secondsfor a stem degree right if you're focusing on one area of stem and that might be a growing area whatever but you
33:4433 minutes, 44 secondsit won't train you to think outside the box that's what the liberal arts do and I always tell people it doesn't matter what you major in in the liberal arts it
33:5333 minutes, 53 secondsdoesn't matter where your history polyi English religious studies it's all the same in because yeah no that that I
34:0134 minutes, 1 secondtotally agree with um in terms of profession I've also you know very much a defender of majoring I I switch just for the record from uh Applied
34:1034 minutes, 10 secondsMathematics to uh Jewish studies in in undergrad so I'm I'm very much on uh on on this team um what would you say to
34:1634 minutes, 16 secondsthen the follow-up question of well at least maybe in in the 80s when you were studying you know Humanities or English literature you were in a robust you know
34:2634 minutes, 26 secondsvariety and an array of ideologies now if if my you know future daughter is going to study English you know she's going to come out some you know some
34:3434 minutes, 34 secondstype of marxist you know person who you know won't won't come on family trips to Israel no that it won't happen because
34:4134 minutes, 41 secondsshe studied at the University and you know je Jeffrey copin spoke about this last night um if we're a liberal brainwashing machine we're not doing a
34:4934 minutes, 49 secondsgood job of it there's no evidence that professors succeed in radicalizing their students whatever they're getting they're getting from the the whether
34:5734 minutes, 57 secondsfrom the Internet or from social media or from at home they're not getting it from the University um we don't we're not and the fact is that most professors
35:0635 minutes, 6 secondsaren't radical most professors are just standard liberals you know it's funny you know if I think back to my college
35:1235 minutes, 12 secondsYears in the early 80s U we actually had a death to Israel rally at UCLA not we I mean it was in N in the fall of
35:2035 minutes, 20 seconds1982 general assembly of Jewish federations was holding their annual conference in LA and manakan bean the prime minister of Israel was coming to address now he actually
35:2935 minutes, 29 secondsdidn't address because his wife died that day and he had to fly home but um there were protest this was during the Lebanon war and there were protests at
35:3735 minutes, 37 secondsUCLA and um during the protest one of the protesters led the crowd chanting death to Israel now at that point UCLA
35:4635 minutes, 46 secondshad about a dozen different Jewish student groups all of whom did not do anything together you know there was Hillel which did social programming and
35:5435 minutes, 54 secondsthen there were the Greeks and there was you know Ai and zbt and there there was the progressive Zionist caucus and there was kabad they
36:0136 minutes, 1 secondwere all doing all these things and so then I used the joke when I was there was there's enough uh Jews and funding for like four good organizations so
36:0936 minutes, 9 secondsthat's why there's 12 yes and so what they did is we came together and created the Jewish student council which came together in crisis and um and then we we
36:1936 minutes, 19 secondsit was how to deal with that but for the most part that was a that was not a common thing and then I know this the vice president's off off at UCLA started
36:2836 minutes, 28 secondsdoing an annual Retreat which I participated in up at the UC Conference House where we bring all the student groups together to kind of talk about
36:3536 minutes, 35 secondsissues and to build Bridges so I mean there I went to protest I protested speakers in college Noom Chomsky came and spoke on campus and so I was part of
36:4436 minutes, 44 secondsa protest outside we didn't stop him from speaking we just handed Flyers to people going into the building saying here's what he said about Jews and
36:5136 minutes, 51 secondsIsrael and his connection with Holocaust deniers right that's how you did it you you could protest there was nothing wrong with protesting it was you let the
36:5836 minutes, 58 secondsspeaker speak um I would say even all the way um through grad school into the
37:0737 minutes, 7 secondsearly 2000s there was never a problem with an Israeli speaker um on campus and I would say
37:1437 minutes, 14 secondsthis problem is very recent I mean I know at UCI in 2010 Michael Orin there was that was this s of for spis as my
37:2137 minutes, 21 secondsmother would say an appetizer where he his talk was disrupted um but that's relatively recent that's it's really and
37:3037 minutes, 30 secondsI would say and particularly since the massacres um it's gotten very very bad um I was at the ajs in December and
37:3837 minutes, 38 secondshearing from other went to the program for Jew directors of Jewish studies two hours of misery I thought it would be cathartic but no everyone who spoke is
37:4737 minutes, 47 secondslike the worst term of my professional career the last fall uh what happening on my campus every it was that was what he heard from for two hours from every
37:5637 minutes, 56 secondseveryone in the room it's bad Across America right now in it's the worst I have ever seen it there's nothing comes
38:0438 minutes, 4 secondsclose to it which is why I mean which is why again just just demographically I'm I'm worried I'm genuinely worried about the future of universities to be
38:1238 minutes, 12 secondsuniversities and not vocational schools because again the the public is is taking notes and so you know I I can't imagine I mean
38:2138 minutes, 21 secondsI haven't looked at any polling data on this I'd be curious to to see it I can't imagine the Public's um view of universities has gone up in
38:2938 minutes, 29 secondsthe last four months I mean had the the Harvard and Penn and MIT hearings and just so much I mean everybody has a story now of you know what's what's
38:3838 minutes, 38 secondshappening on the campus um so it would behoove me to not go in this direction because you know for for listeners who might be familiar with your work you really are a scholar of uh modern Jewish
38:4738 minutes, 47 secondsthought specifically late um 19th century German Jewish thought um Henrik gret um who you are currently writing or
38:5538 minutes, 55 secondspublishing a book on um but just to ask you as a question of sort of uh modern Jewish thought where do you put this moment in terms of you know a zoomed out
39:0339 minutes, 3 secondspicture of History you know what is this sort of how are people going to be teaching about this in you know 2,00 on
39:1039 minutes, 10 secondson campuses in Jewish studies departments I don't know I mean that's a hard one because um it is the the
39:2039 minutes, 20 secondslast let's see seven years in general I mean I I'll I'll be political here since the election of trump was a shock and
39:2839 minutes, 28 secondswhat was happening during the Trump and then the attempted coup on January 6th since the um since the attempted coup on
39:3539 minutes, 35 secondsJanuary 6th I have had repeated nightmares and it took usually I stress nightmares they all everyone gets these
39:4239 minutes, 42 secondsit's the you know last week of the term I've been enrolled in the class and I haven't done any paper and I forgot about it and I can't find the syllabus that kind of work stress we is what
39:5039 minutes, 50 secondshappens when you get both a JD and a PhD you've been in school for too long yeah it's you know and then um but now I was having dreams where I was
39:5839 minutes, 58 secondslooking for a place to live and I told me why I have a house why am I having this and then I realized I'm having nightmares of
40:0640 minutes, 6 secondsdisplacement I'm having nightmares of Exile which is a first and like I'm afraid I have will have to leave this
40:1440 minutes, 14 secondscountry um I had my first martyrdom nightmare on Saturday on Sunday morning not Saturday night never had that before
40:2340 minutes, 23 secondsum I'm scared um scared about living in this country uh that was something I know I
40:3140 minutes, 31 secondswent to a talk in December at Villa Aurora which is Leon F funger uh house in the Palisades and Leon fuk funger was
40:3840 minutes, 38 secondsa novelist in a German novel Jewish novelist who had to flee Nazi Germany ended up in France went through two frch concentration camps until he would
40:4540 minutes, 45 secondssented to America and in 1943 he gave a talk and at this program I went to they read an excerpt of
40:5340 minutes, 53 secondsit and the talk was the pro the working problems of the writer in Exile and listening to what he said in
41:0041 minutes1943 I found myself not listening to it as oh look here's a new historical Source on what Jews went through during
41:0741 minutes, 7 secondsthe Holocaust but oh this is some advice for me in the future what I'm going to have to experience how would it be for me if I
41:1641 minutes, 16 secondsgo into Exile um that was the first where I was listening to Exile not as something historical but as something potentially
41:2441 minutes, 24 secondspersonal to me um that's new um the the conditions on campus right now I I've never seen
41:3341 minutes, 33 secondsanything like it um and you know we talk about public discourse um The Assault on
41:4041 minutes, 40 secondsJews in America right now is very specific to college campuses because um even though it's not a majority on
41:4841 minutes, 48 secondscampus by any means it's a very vocal minority that's where it's most vocal and that's where it's most happening the
41:5541 minutes, 55 secondsmost and we've never seen that before in the US and I don't know what historical precedence and it's hard for me to see
42:0242 minutes, 2 secondsit because I'm in the middle of it and I don't have that historical perspective to step back and say oh here are the trends oh this is just like when the
42:1042 minutes, 10 secondsJews were segregated in Poland in 1937 38 you know it's not like that um I don't I I don't see the bigger picture
42:1942 minutes, 19 secondsright now because I feel like I'm too much in the midst of it yeah you know it's fascinating I mean as you're obviously well aware I'm teaching a on American Jewish history now doing it for
42:2842 minutes, 28 secondsyour department so yeah why um of course you know the background but one of the interesting academic debates and most Jewish historians or most Jews if you
42:3642 minutes, 36 secondsstop on them on the street would sign off on you know what's called American Jewish exceptionalism right this idea that really from the outset even before
42:4442 minutes, 44 seconds1776 America was just an exceptional place because of separation of church and state and the Liberties that at least most of the colonies had and you
42:5242 minutes, 52 secondsknow even this idea of what you know Jonathan sarna calls you know free market Judaism of you know you have a choice and it's not the chief Rabbi appointed by the church or by the king
43:0143 minutes, 1 secondyou know it's you know whatever guy wants to open up a sh that can out compete the other um and so when whenever I hear American Jews talk about
43:1043 minutes, 10 secondscomparisons there's one side of me that that wants to push back and say I don't know America really is different on the other hand that I have the sort of other
43:1843 minutes, 18 secondsangel that that pops up on my shoulder and says well listen I mean people always thought that whatever they were in is different I mean the Jews in France you know thought that things were
43:2643 minutes, 26 secondsdifferent than Jews in Germany thought that things were different Jews in Russia you know before Alexander II was uh assassinated thought you know oh here it's different and so I mean how do you
43:3543 minutes, 35 secondssort of balance those I mean both as a as a historian and somebody you know both probably thinking both academically and personally do you have sort of a an
43:4343 minutes, 43 secondsintuition there so David nberg wrote a really important book called anti-judaism a few years ago and his
43:5143 minutes, 51 secondspoint is that anti-judaism as a movement in western civilization goes back it's predates Christianity it goes back we can see it
43:5943 minutes, 59 secondsalready in the Roman in you know he looking at something that happens dur Caligula where he begins it and it then
44:0644 minutes, 6 secondsproceeds into the Western religions of Christianity and Islam because Islam is a western religion and one of his
44:1344 minutes, 13 secondsbiggest points is that anti- Juda what happens so there's a lot a lot of hatred
44:2044 minutes, 20 secondsabout Jews is not any different from any other minority group in history and you can do a lot of comparison with the Roma for example a lot of the stereotypes of
44:2844 minutes, 28 secondsthe Roma are the same stereotypes about Jews but what makes anti-jewish hatred different is in the western tradition
44:3644 minutes, 36 secondsJews were used as an ideological other so if you were battling an opponent over
44:4244 minutes, 42 secondstheology or political Theory or anything you would um accuse your opponent of being Jewish or judaizing or advocating
44:5144 minutes, 51 secondsa Jewish position and they really weren't had nothing to do with real Jews or real Jewish thought um and the result is that there's a very
44:5944 minutes, 59 secondslong history in the west of doing that and I think when Jews came to America they said here we they didn't say here
45:0645 minutes, 6 secondswe can be white because whiteness is specific to America and they came from non places outside America but in America allowed Jews to be white uh they
45:1445 minutes, 14 secondscame from places where they were other and they were still othered here too but not in the same degree but what we're seeing is those
45:2245 minutes, 22 secondsTraditions carry over into the present into the US so if you think for example if you think
45:2945 minutes, 29 secondswhiteness is the best thing ever right what you white you know then you think not only are the Jews not white but they are the chief enemy of whiteness in
45:3745 minutes, 37 secondsAmerica if you think America is a is a white supremacist state with racism built into its bones that not only do
45:4545 minutes, 45 secondsyou think that Jews are white but they are the epitome of whiteness if you um if you uh think uh that uh there is a
45:5545 minutes, 55 secondsconspiracy of hostile Elites uh to either on the right globalize the world under they're
46:0446 minutes, 4 secondscontrol then you think that Jews are a part of that you got qanon saying that and You' got all the stuff on George Shor and if on the other on the on the
46:1246 minutes, 12 secondsfar left you think that it's all a hostile Elite of big businesses and media and corporations then it's all on
46:1946 minutes, 19 secondsbehalf of Jews if you think that um we have to protect the nation against
46:2646 minutes, 26 secondsinternationalism and globalism then Jews are the rootless Cosmopolitan trying to break down our
46:3346 minutes, 33 secondsnation if you think that nationalism is a good thing do you think that nationalism is terrible and we should
46:4046 minutes, 40 secondsmove away from parochialism then Jews are the most nationalist uh reactionary group out there and so all these um this
46:4746 minutes, 47 secondsapproach that we think of in terms of Europe and the medieval period the early modern period the 20th and 20th Century where people are fighting among
46:5546 minutes, 55 secondsthemselves and they're using Jews as their cudel that's all happening here now too so sure and this is why I mean
47:0347 minutes, 3 secondsthis the irony of what you're saying not not you specifically but of of you know just the the history is that all of that
47:1047 minutes, 10 secondsis is the argument in in my head for why I I do identify as a at least political Zionist in a strong sense because the
47:1847 minutes, 18 secondsthe solution I mean obviously we can debate about whether or not Zionism you know ended in 48 or not but but all of that leads one or could easily lead one
47:2747 minutes, 27 secondsto say okay this is so systemic you know nber's great uh Brook is a nber's what is it David nberg David N nerenberg N I
47:3647 minutes, 36 secondsN B RG got it so I mean his book is incredible I read it a couple years ago and all of that basically leads you to say okay well we really do need our sort
47:4347 minutes, 43 secondsof our own place where you know we're we at least have some defenses from from this attack on on the right on left and and one of the things that I keep
47:5147 minutes, 51 secondstelling students is that the irony of this proliferation of really what I call anti-semitic anti Zionism as opposed to
47:5947 minutes, 59 secondsyou know there is a non- anti-semitic anti-zionism that exists but at least the anti-semitic anti Zionism itself is the reason for Zionism
48:0748 minutes, 7 secondsin the first place so it's almost dialectical in some in some strange sense where if if one could imagine you know the counterfactual world of post
48:1548 minutes, 15 secondsOctober 7th America where everybody came came around and was supporting the Jewish community and Dei centers and
48:2248 minutes, 22 secondscampus groups and even students for justice in Palestine were all coming and saying you know this was terrible oh my goodness you know the beheadings and the
48:2948 minutes, 29 secondsrapes and all of that in some sense and I'm not saying you know again it's hard to run the counterfactual my one's commitment to
48:3848 minutes, 38 secondsZionism might have actually dipped because one might have seen that situation and said well wait a minute Israel seems less safe for Jews and America right look how supportive
48:4648 minutes, 46 secondseveryone's being right the diaspora seems not so bad at all but of course that's not how it how it ended up and so I think actually ironically commitments
48:5548 minutes, 55 secondsto Zionism um have actually spiked for for I think good good reason here yeah and I would just say in case any of you are thinking of making Aliah uh and want
49:0449 minutes, 4 secondsI looked it up okay this is where it's come to um you don't go through the Israeli Embassy or the Israeli consulate
49:1149 minutes, 11 secondsit's actually really old school you have to go to the Jewish agency website so the Jewish agency which comes out of the
49:1849 minutes, 18 secondsfirst zus Congress which predates the state still handles Aliah to Israel that's where all the paperwork is
49:2649 minutes, 26 secondswow FYI on yeah there we go I mean help helpful in from an historian it's still I was kind of shocked I thought oh you
49:3449 minutes, 34 secondsknow it's it's it's now a separate government so of course the government would handle immigration it doesn't it's still the Jewish agency got it well
49:4149 minutes, 41 secondslisten NE nefes Benes is not currently a sponsor of the podcast but maybe I'll have to make a phone call to them and yeah um so we've been talking for about an hour I wanted to see if there was
49:5049 minutes, 50 secondsanything else that you wanted to say anything else you wanted to discuss or any just final comments you have well I'm just going to say what I um that the
49:5849 minutes, 58 secondsthe university the public university stands for academic freedom and academic freedom a lot of people who aren't in
50:0550 minutes, 5 secondsthe University have no idea what that means and it just think they think it means some radical Marxist who's trying to convince their children to be trans
50:1350 minutes, 13 secondsum but what it is is the ability to speak and to teach and it's critical to the
50:2150 minutes, 21 secondsfunctioning of the university and we have now reached the place where academic freedom exists for
50:2850 minutes, 28 secondseveryone but for Jews and if that happens then the public university will cease to exist it it
50:3550 minutes, 35 secondsstrikes at the heart of the message of the public university and this is a critical moment for public universities they have to step up to and they and I
50:4450 minutes, 44 secondsthink Mo a lot of universities don't know how to do it they're confused they they don't understand
50:5050 minutes, 50 secondswhat's happening and their lawyers are telling them you know bash the lawyers you know it's there you
50:5850 minutes, 58 secondsknow there that you know don't say anything that will expose us to liability and the result is that Jews are
51:0551 minutes, 5 secondssacrificed and it's um this is a this is a testing moment for the public university in America and well I don't
51:1251 minutes, 12 secondsknow where it's going to come out and I don't know what's going to happen in the next year from now um and I I I cannot
51:2051 minutes, 20 secondstell you how many people I know family members and friends and colleagues who are in the process of getting alternate citizenship or who tell me they're
51:2851 minutes, 28 secondsthinking of retiring because I don't want to be here anymore they they have they can't deal with it so we're in a very very difficult place right now this
51:3651 minutes, 36 secondsis by far the worst I've ever seen um in I have been in public university on and
51:4351 minutes, 43 secondsoff since 1980 and I've never ever ever seen anything close to what we're going through now well Professor Jeffrey wooder thank
51:5151 minutes, 51 secondsyou so much for coming on And discussing my pleasure thank you
51:5751 minutes, 57 seconds[Music]
52:0152 minutes, 1 secondyeah yeah
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<이스라엘, 캠퍼스 기후, 그리고 대학의 미래> 요약 및 평론
1. 텍스트 요약
본 텍스트는 유대학 교수이자 19세기 독일 유대인 사상가 연구자인 제프리 블루팅어(Jeffrey Blutinger)와 다니엘 레빈(Daniel LaVine) 랍비의 대담을 기록한 녹취록이다
산호세 주립대 강의 중단 사건: 블루팅어 교수는 이스라엘-팔레스타인 분쟁의 역사적 기원과 평화 프로세스(2001년 타바 회담 등)를 학술적으로 설명하기 위해 초빙되었다
. 그러나 오클랜드의 급진 단체와 연계된 시위대와 일부 학내 교수 및 행정가들이 그의 얼굴을 인터넷에 유포하고 강의실 복도를 점거하여 격렬한 시위를 벌였다 . 복도에서 물리적 충돌과 소요가 발생하자, 대학 총장과 경찰은 시위대를 해산하는 대신 블루팅어 교수와 학생들을 대피시키는 방식을 택했다 . 결과적으로 교수의 학문의 자유와 학생들의 학습권이 박탈당하는 결과를 낳았다 . 미국 대학 내 '학문의 자유' 위기: 대담자들은 2023년 10월 7일 하마스의 이스라엘 학살 사건 이후 미국 캠퍼스 내 반이스라엘 시위가 급진적이고 폭력적인 형태로 변질되었다고 지적한다
. 이스라엘 편향적인 입장이 아닌 중립적이고 평화적인 해결책을 제시하는 학술적 논의조차 시위대에 의해 봉쇄당하고 있다 . 반면, 하마스를 옹호하거나 반이스라엘 성향을 띤 발언은 자유롭게 허용되는 '내게만 허용된 표현의 자유(Free speech for me but not for thee)'라는 이중잣대가 팽배해졌다 . 대학 행정의 무능과 다양성·형평성·포용성(DEI)의 한계: 대학 당국은 법적 책임 회피와 학생들과의 충돌 방지에만 급급하여 유대인 학생과 교수의 권리 보호를 방치하고 있다
. 특히 현대 대학의 다양성·형평성·포용성(DEI) 시스템이 권력 관계에 따른 '형평성(Equity)'에만 매몰된 채, 소수자로서의 유대인이 겪는 반유대주의적 폭력과 배제를 제대로 다루지 못하고 있다는 비판이 제기된다 . 역사적 맥락과 유대인 사회의 위기감: 블루팅어 교수는 데이비드 니런버그(David Nirenberg)의 <반유대주의>를 인용하며, 서구 역사에서 유대인이 항상 지배적인 이데올로기적 논쟁의 '타자'이자 희생양으로 이용되어 왔음을 설명한다
. 미국 유대인 사회는 그간 '미국 예외주의'를 믿어왔으나, 최근 캠퍼스 내의 폭력적 양상으로 인해 망명, 추방, 순교에 대한 악몽을 꿀 정도로 심각한 실존적 공포를 느끼고 있으며, 이는 1980년대 이후 최악의 기후라고 증언한다 .
2. 학술적 평론
본 대담은 단순한 개인적 경험의 회고를 넘어, 현대 미국 고등교육 시스템이 직면한 핵심적 모순을 유대인 지식인의 시각에서 예리하게 포착해 낸 텍스트이다. 특히 학문의 자유, 대학의 관료화, 그리고 인종 및 정체성 정치의 맹점을 역사적 거시 구조와 결합하여 논의한다는 점에서 학술적 분석 가치가 높다.
① '공론장'으로서 대학의 붕괴와 지적 전체주의
블루팅어 교수가 겪은 사건은 현대 대학이 상이한 견해를 가진 이들이 논쟁하고 학습하는 '실험실'의 기능을 상실했음을 극명하게 보여준다
② 알제리 모델의 오류와 탈식민주의 담론의 과잉 단순화
대담에서 매우 흥미로운 학술적 지점은反지오니즘(Anti-Zionism) 운동가들이 차용하는 '알제리 모델'에 대한 비판이다
그러나 블루팅어 교수가 적절히 지적하듯, 이스라엘 인구의 과반은 중동 및 북아프리카에서 쫓겨난 미즈라히 유대인(Mizrahi Jews) 계열이며 이들에게는 돌아갈 '본국'이 존재하지 않는다
③ DEI(다양성·형평성·포용성)의 정치학적 맹점
텍스트는 현대 미국 대학이 금과옥조로 여기는 DEI 프레임워크의 구조적 결함을 날카롭게 고발한다
④ 결론: 대학의 미래와 공립 교육의 과제
블루팅어와 레빈의 대담은 공립 대학이 자본과 행정 편의주의, 그리고 급진적 정치 올바름에 휘둘려 본연의 임무를 망각할 때 어떤 파국이 오는지를 경고한다
==
다음은 업로드된 「Israel, Campus Climate, and the Future of the University w/ Jeffrey Blutinger」 유튜브 대담 트랜스크립트에 대한 <1,000 단어 요약+평론>이다.
1. 요약
이 대담은 미국 대학 캠퍼스에서 이스라엘-팔레스타인 문제, 반시오니즘, 반유대주의, 학문적 자유, 대학의 미래가 어떻게 충돌하고 있는지를 다룬다. 중심 인물은 캘리포니아 주립대 롱비치의 유대학 교수 Jeffrey Blutinger이다. 그는 원래 산호세 주립대에서 홀로코스트 연구와 이스라엘-팔레스타인 갈등에 관한 강연을 할 예정이었다. 그런데 그 강연이 친팔레스타인·반이스라엘 학생 시위대에 의해 방해받았고, 경찰과 대학 행정이 개입하는 사건으로 확대되었다.
Blutinger의 설명에 따르면, 그는 이스라엘 정부의 무조건적 옹호자가 아니다. 오히려 자신은 오래전부터 평화와 두 국가 해법을 지지해 왔고, 이스라엘과 팔레스타인 양쪽의 역사적 고통과 정치적 요구를 함께 설명하려 했다고 말한다. 그는 강연에서 1948년 문제, 1967년 점령 문제, 예루살렘 문제, 팔레스타인 난민 문제, 2000년 캠프 데이비드와 타바 협상 등을 다루려 했다고 한다. 즉, 그의 강연은 “이스라엘 선전”이 아니라 갈등의 역사적 구조를 설명하는 학술적 강의였다는 것이다.
그럼에도 불구하고 일부 활동가들은 그를 “시오니스트” 혹은 “친이스라엘 선전가”로 규정하고 강연 자체를 막으려 했다. Blutinger는 이것을 단순한 의견 충돌이 아니라, 대학 안에서 학문적 토론을 불가능하게 만드는 현상으로 본다. 그의 표현을 따라가면, 문제는 사람들이 그의 주장에 반대했다는 데 있지 않다. 문제는 그가 말할 기회 자체를 빼앗겼다는 데 있다. 그는 “내 말을 듣고 반박하라”는 학문적 원칙이 작동하지 않았다고 본다.
대담의 중요한 부분은 “반시오니즘은 반유대주의인가?”라는 문제다. Blutinger는 둘을 단순히 동일시하지 않는다. 그는 비유대인뿐 아니라 유대인 안에도 반시오니스트가 있고, 종교적·정치적 이유로 시온주의를 거부하는 전통도 있다고 인정한다. 특히 하레디 유대인 중에는 메시아 도래 이전의 유대국가 건설을 신학적으로 반대하는 흐름도 있다고 설명한다. 또한 이스라엘 정부 정책, 특히 가자 전쟁이나 점령 정책에 대한 비판은 정당한 정치적 비판일 수 있다고 본다.
하지만 그는 동시에 “이스라엘만 세계에서 유일하게 존재할 권리가 없는 국가로 취급하는 태도”에는 문제가 있다고 본다. 그의 기준에서 반시오니즘이 반유대주의로 넘어가는 지점은 유대인의 집단적 자기결정권만을 예외적으로 부정할 때다. 모든 민족주의를 반대한다면 그것은 일관된 반민족주의일 수 있다. 그러나 팔레스타인 민족주의는 지지하면서 유대 민족주의만 절대 악으로 규정한다면, 거기에는 유대인에 대한 특별한 적대가 들어갈 수 있다는 것이다.
그는 또한 오늘날 미국 캠퍼스의 반이스라엘 운동이 전통적인 반식민주의 언어를 사용한다고 분석한다. 이 담론에서 이스라엘은 백인 유럽 식민주의 국가이고, 팔레스타인은 토착민이며, 시온주의는 정착민 식민주의로 이해된다. Blutinger는 이 프레임이 일부 역사적 현실을 설명할 수는 있지만, 지나치게 단순화된다고 본다. 왜냐하면 이스라엘 유대인의 상당수는 유럽 출신이 아니라 중동·북아프리카 출신 미즈라히 유대인이며, 그들 중 다수는 아랍 국가에서 난민처럼 쫓겨난 사람들이기 때문이다. 그러므로 이스라엘을 단순히 “백인 유럽 식민주의 국가”로만 보는 것은 역사적으로 부정확하다는 것이다.
대담 후반부는 대학의 위기 문제로 확장된다. Blutinger는 학생들이 불편한 생각을 만나고, 자기 견해와 다른 사람의 말을 듣고, 반박하고, 다시 생각하는 공간이 대학이어야 한다고 말한다. 그러나 현재 대학은 점점 소비자 중심 기관이 되고 있다고 비판한다. 학생은 고객처럼 취급되고, 대학은 등록금을 내는 사람을 만족시켜야 하는 서비스 기관처럼 변하고 있다. 이런 상황에서 불편한 강의, 논쟁적 주제, 정치적으로 민감한 토론은 쉽게 회피된다.
그는 인문학의 위기도 언급한다. 대학이 직업훈련소처럼 변하면서 역사, 문학, 철학, 종교학 같은 분야가 쓸모없는 학문처럼 취급된다는 것이다. 그러나 그는 바로 그런 인문학이 학생에게 생각하는 법, 복잡한 문제를 단순한 구호로 환원하지 않는 법, 낯선 관점을 이해하는 법을 가르친다고 본다. 따라서 이스라엘-팔레스타인 문제를 둘러싼 캠퍼스 갈등은 단순히 중동정치 문제가 아니라, 대학이 무엇을 위해 존재하는가라는 더 큰 질문으로 이어진다.
마지막 부분에서 Blutinger는 현재 미국 유대인들이 느끼는 불안과 공포를 말한다. 그는 자신도 악몽을 꾸고, “망명”이라는 감각을 처음으로 실존적으로 느끼고 있다고 말한다. 이는 단순히 이스라엘 정치에 대한 방어가 아니라, 미국 사회 안에서 유대인이 안전한 시민으로 남을 수 있는가라는 깊은 불안이다. 그는 미국 대학들이 유대인의 학문적 자유와 안전을 제대로 보호하지 못하고 있다고 비판한다.
2. 평론
이 대담의 가장 큰 장점은 Blutinger가 단순한 친이스라엘 선전가로 말하지 않는다는 점이다. 그는 이스라엘 정부를 무조건 옹호하지 않고, 팔레스타인의 고통과 민족적 요구도 인정한다. 1948년 난민 문제, 1967년 점령, 예루살렘, 캠프 데이비드와 타바 협상 등 구체적 역사 쟁점을 언급하는 방식은 꽤 균형 잡혀 있다. 그러므로 그가 캠퍼스에서 발언 기회를 박탈당했다면, 그것은 실제로 학문적 자유의 문제라고 볼 수 있다.
하지만 동시에 그의 관점에는 분명한 한계도 있다. 그는 자신이 평화주의적 시온주의자라고 말하지만, 팔레스타인 학생이나 활동가들이 왜 “시온주의”라는 말 자체에 강한 거부감을 느끼는지에 대해서는 충분히 공감하지 못하는 듯하다. 유대인에게 시온주의가 자기결정권과 안전의 언어라면, 팔레스타인인에게 그것은 추방, 토지 상실, 군사점령, 봉쇄의 역사와 연결된다. 이 두 기억은 서로 충돌한다. Blutinger는 이 충돌을 알고 있지만, 자신의 경험이 공격받았다는 데 더 큰 비중을 둔다.
이 점에서 이 대담은 두 층위로 읽어야 한다. 첫째, 교수 개인이 강연을 방해받은 사건은 명백히 문제다. 대학에서 특정 주제를 금지하거나 특정 인물을 낙인찍어 말하지 못하게 하는 것은 위험하다. 둘째, 그러나 그 강연을 방해한 학생들의 분노도 단순한 무지나 광기만으로 치부할 수 없다. 가자 전쟁 이후의 정서, 팔레스타인 민간인의 대량 희생, 미국 대학과 이스라엘 국가기관의 연결, 기부자와 행정의 압력에 대한 반감이 이 운동의 배경에 있다.
Blutinger가 잘 짚은 부분은 “토론 거부”의 문제다. 오늘날 캠퍼스 정치에서 상대를 설득할 대상이 아니라 제거할 대상으로 보는 경향이 강해졌다. 이것은 우파만의 문제가 아니고 좌파만의 문제도 아니다. 반유대주의, 이슬람혐오, 반팔레스타인주의, 반시오니즘, 백인민족주의가 서로 다른 방식으로 대학 공간을 압박한다. 대학은 이 복잡성을 견뎌야 하는데, 많은 행정가들은 법적 책임과 여론 관리에 급급하여 원칙을 세우지 못한다.
그러나 Blutinger의 말 중 조심해야 할 부분도 있다. 그는 “유대인만 학문적 자유에서 제외될 위험”을 강조한다. 이 말은 미국 유대인의 불안이라는 현실을 반영하지만, 동시에 팔레스타인계·아랍계·무슬림 학생과 교수들이 겪는 감시, 해고, 낙인, 비자 문제, 취업 불이익을 상대적으로 작게 보이게 할 수 있다. 실제 대학의 자유 위기는 유대인만의 문제가 아니다. 친이스라엘 발언도 억압될 수 있고, 친팔레스타인 발언도 억압될 수 있다. 양쪽 모두에서 “말할 권리”가 선택적으로 보호되는 것이 문제다.
이 대담의 핵심 가치는 결국 <대학은 무엇인가>라는 질문에 있다. 대학은 편안한 신념을 확인하는 장소가 아니다. 대학은 불편한 사실, 적대적 기억, 모순된 정의 요구가 부딪히는 곳이어야 한다. 이스라엘-팔레스타인 문제는 바로 그런 시험대다. 한쪽의 고통만 말하면 선전이 되고, 양쪽의 고통을 말하되 권력 비대칭을 지우면 거짓 균형이 된다. 좋은 대학 강의는 이 둘을 모두 피해야 한다.
따라서 이 자료는 “캠퍼스 반유대주의”에 관한 증언이면서, 동시에 “대학의 공론장이 어떻게 붕괴하고 있는가”에 관한 사례다. Blutinger의 자기방어적 어조를 감안해 읽어야 하지만, 그가 던지는 경고는 가볍지 않다. 말할 수 없는 대학, 들을 수 없는 학생, 원칙 없는 행정, 두려움 속의 교수들이 늘어난다면, 대학은 더 이상 지식 공동체가 아니라 정치적 부족들의 전쟁터가 된다. 이 대담의 불편한 진실은 바로 여기에 있다.
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