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Robert Putnam reflects on how America became so polarized and what can unify the nationFeb 19, 2025 6:20 PM EST
By —
Judy Woodruff
By —
Frank Carlson
TranscriptAudio
For over two years, Judy Woodruff has traveled the country exploring the roots of America’s divisions over race, religion, culture, wealth and more for America at a Crossroads. The series returns with political scientist Robert Putnam, who has spent decades studying these divides and how we might find our way back to a more unified nation.
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Notice: Transcripts are machine and human generated and lightly edited for accuracy. They may contain errors.
Geoff Bennett:
Two years ago, Judy Woodruff began traveling the country to examine the roots of division for her series, America at a Crossroads.
Tonight, she returns with a conversation with someone who has spent his life considering such questions.
Robert Putnam, Harvard University:
Fundamentally undermining the American constitutional order, changing us from being a democracy.
Judy Woodruff:
Now 84 years old, Harvard Professor Emeritus Robert Putnam has spent decades studying how American society evolved from one that, however flawed, was steadily moving towards greater connection, equality, cooperation and cohesion…
John F. Kennedy, President of the United States: Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.
Judy Woodruff:
… to one that in more recent decades has been defined by growing isolation, distrust, inequality, and political discord.
Donald Trump, President of the United States: My recent election is a mandate to completely and totally reverse a horrible betrayal and all of these many betrayals that have taken place.
Judy Woodruff:
To the point that Putnam now worries these forces threaten to upend the Constitution.
Robert Putnam:
They're talking about not obeying court orders. I mean, come on. That's — the court system, better or worse, is currently the last bulwark of our democracy. So we're awfully close to breaking the bounds that have kept us — our democracy safe.
How many in the room are on a bowling team, bowling league?
Judy Woodruff:
Paul Solman first profile Robert Putnam on this program 30 years ago, when Putnam published his essay "Bowling Alone," which would become his groundbreaking book showing that, since the high water mark of the 1960s, Americans had become steadily more isolated and that this was weakening civic engagement and undermining our democracy.
Robert Putnam:
That is a primary cause of the Trump phenomenon. That's true. You can see it in the data, but you don't have to trust me.
Steve Bannon has said publicly, back in the day, when they were trying to figure out how they could get Trump elected, they read this book by this crazy academic called "Bowling Alone," and that guided their — I'm not proud of this, but that guided their strategy, because they thought, just as I had been writing, that, when people are socially isolated, as we are increasingly, they become vulnerable to populist appeals.
So that's the first point. We are increasingly socially isolated. And that makes our country vulnerable to, I was going to say fascism.That isn't quite true, but it's close to being true.
The poor kids who live here now are living in a completely different universe for the rest of the kids in town.
Judy Woodruff:
In 2015, Putnam chronicled another major concern with his book "Our Kids," the growing gap between increasingly well-off college-educated Americans and everyone else, now one of the greatest predictors of who supports Donald Trump.
Robert Putnam:
Well, until we fix the underlying problem — basically, there's two pairs of underlying problems, increasing social isolation and especially in the non-college-educated part of our population — we're constantly vulnerable to that same kind of pressure for the same reason that we were vulnerable when he came along.
Judy Woodruff:
I met Putnam last week just off Washington Square Park in Manhattan at Judson Memorial Church, founded in 1890 by American Baptist Minister Edward Judson with money donated by John D. Rockefeller, with a mission to provide aid and comfort to the poor immigrants living in the squalid tenements nearby.
Woman:
You come and have a place that is beautiful to look at away from what they were experiencing in the tenement houses.
Judy Woodruff:
Today, Putnam sees strong parallels between that era, the post-Civil War period known as the Gilded Age, and our own.
Robert Putnam:
America was extremely polarized. Politics then was very tribal, just like it is now. Inequality was very high then. That was the last time the gap between rich and poor was anywhere near as large as it is now, so very polarized, very unequal, very socially disconnected, very socially isolated, because then the industrialization meant that millions of people had just moved from a village, a village in Sicily or a village in Iowa, to the big city.
They had left their family and friends and connections behind. So, they were very disconnected, just like we're very disconnected. And they were very self-centered, if I can put it that way. Americans in that period were focused on I and not on the we.
Judy Woodruff:
Putnam's most recent book, "The Upswing," describes these many parallels in detail and how out of those challenges came an explosion of new civic, religious and social groups, the Boy Scouts, the NAACP, the Rotary Club, the General Federation of Women's Clubs, as well as the many reforms that came to be known as the progressive era, the federal income tax, women's suffrage, labor rights and more, changing the course of the following decades.
Robert Putnam:
All of a sudden, we began to become more equal, less polarized, more connected, and a greater sense that we're all in this together.
Judy Woodruff:
What did they do?
Robert Putnam:
Well, there are both positive and negative lessons, actually, I have to say. And I thought, for sure, I knew what would change first. I thought it was the economics, and I thought maybe the economics would change first. We'd begin to become more equal economically, and then our politics would improve and so on.
The one thing the data show is, that's not true. Economics was the last thing to change. So then what was the first thing to change? And, to my shock, it was cultural change. It was a moral revival is the way I want to put it. People began to say, wait a minute, it's not all about us. We have obligations to other people.
Judy Woodruff:
One example he points to was the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire just a few blocks from where we were speaking. In 1911, a fire broke out there in a sweatshop, trapping garment workers locked inside. Dozens jumped to their deaths; 146 women died in all, shocking the conscience of the city and beyond, including a young woman named Frances Perkins, who was having tea with friends nearby.
Robert Putnam:
Up to that point, she had been thinking of herself as a debutante. And she said, that's evil. We have obligations to those people. Almost immediately, she became a social reformer right here in New York City, and eventually she became FDR's secretary of labor, the first woman Cabinet member in American history.
And it was all because of that moral moment in which she realized she had obligations to other people. And that's one example among what was happening a lot. I sort of think that it's going to be hard for us to turn things around in America until we begin to recognize we have obligations to other people that are at least as important as ours.
Narrator:
This is a film about why you should join the club and why the fate of America depends on it.
Judy Woodruff:
Putnam's life story and work have been recently captured in the documentary "Join or Die," encouraging people across the country, especially young people, to again seek out organizations and connection in their own communities, to find issues they're passionate about, and to effect change from the bottom up, like the progressives did, but to also go beyond that movement to include Americans of all colors, backgrounds and beliefs.
One of your points is that this is something that happened at the grassroots level.
Robert Putnam:
Yes.
Judy Woodruff:
It didn't come out of Washington. It didn't come from the White House, handed down.
Robert Putnam:
Or Harvard or whatever, yes.
Judy Woodruff:
Do you believe that the ingredients are there for that to happen again?
Robert Putnam:
It is happening now, I mean, not enough of it. We need to — well, your show, this whole series is doing that.
You and I both know from our own personal experience that this is happening, and a lot more of it is needed. But that's where it'll begin. I am not a determinist. I don't think any of these things are guaranteed to happen. I don't think it was guaranteed to happen last time. I don't think there was some big cycle in the skies or God or something that was saying, oh, there will be a progressive era here.
I think it happened because a smallish number of young people around 19 — between 1900 and 1910 decided, like Frances Perkins right here, she decided then she was going to help change America. It was not inevitable. It is not inevitable this time. But it could happen. That's why I'm saying the distinction between will it happen. I don't know whether it will happen, but I know it could happen, because it did happen.
Judy Woodruff:
And that will be the focus of many of our stories this year.
For the "PBS News Hour," I'm Judy Woodruff in New York.
===
Robert Putnam reflects on how America became so polarized and what can unify the nation
For over two years, Judy Woodruff has traveled the country exploring the roots of America’s divisions over race, religion, culture, wealth and more for America at a Crossroads. The series returns with political scientist Robert Putnam, who has spent decades studying these divides and how we might ...
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Jim Klingler
Saw it and this guy is spot on!
21h
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Steve McHugh
Yes - I listened to this interview, and have also read Robert Putnam's book that was being discussed in the interview. His point is that our modern era, in many ways, echoes the gilded age era of the late 1800's, and that America found positive ways to rise above its social isolation, anger, and extreme economic disparities. The positive trend continued up until the 1960's, and then began to gradually unravel to the point of polarization that we have now. Mr. Putnam is not necessarily saying that America will rise above our internal demons once again, but is only saying that we COULD rise above them, because we have done so in the past.
But moving forward in a positive direction has to begin with a renewed sense of community and concern for our fellow citizens. My fear is that the prevalence of social media and biased news sources makes it far too easy to demonize those whom we consider to be "other." I have to constantly remind myself that the people from the "other" political side (from my own personal perspective) include family members and friends who are genuinely decent people that love this country just as much as I do.
Just breathe, and remember to be kind........................
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Walt Chambers III
One thing very different from the turn of the 20th C. Is our current car culture. Cars separated us (physically and mentally), segregated us more, and isolated us. That fact isn’t going away anytime soon in our world designed around the automobile.
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Jed Dykstra
IT’s Republicans who over turned the apple cart by not adhering to historical precedent, their reckless disregard for compromise, let’s not to forget taking the country to the edge several times for concessions, stealing a Supreme Court seat, and ungodly propaganda to convince their deplorables at all levels to do their bidding.
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April Henderson
I used to wholeheartedly believe the US could slow its trend towards polarization. I was active in groups like Common Ground, etc. However, in the last few years, I’ve become more realistic. I no longer believe it is possible. Our country has given itself over to tribalism and hatred towards each other and it’s clear there is no resolution for this.
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Dave Brainard
Surprisingly insightful interview.
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Gilda Krupp
Only Jesus can heal this nation
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Jean Chapman
Has anyone here actually watched the program? Maybe listened to what he has to say?
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Craig Goodman
Steve Payne Jr.
let me guess, money and healthcare....oh yea, and rightwing ignorance.
Paul Brooke
I'm afraid that Judy Woodruff has been wasting her time with this divided America fluff. I've been reading the comments and many of them are so painfully stupid and uninformed that it's obvious to me that illiteracy, and a small-minded hatefulness are a common denominator with the MAGA permanent underclass.
Patty Easton
I personally have nothing in common with the far right and don't want to unify with them.
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Daniel Cring
PBS NewsHour
I’ve spent decades studying anthropology and ethology at the state universities of FSU, UF, and UL-Lafayette. I started by researching racism and xenophobia, developing a holistic understanding incorporating anthropology and ethology.
Humans are a paradox- we evolved to be the most social mammal in order to survive the australopithecine extinction event.
But we have become victims of our reproductive success. Although we adapted to increasing populations using cultural evolution, we are reaching the end of the dead-end street. We have altered and destroyed Nature because of overpopulation, and we have increased ethnocentrism xenophobia wars and genocide because of overpopulation.
“Socioeconomic polarisation” is but one symptom of this existential threat. When people or other animals are stressed- they create social distance using the Principle of Exclusion which includes Ethnocentrism, stereotyping, racism, sexism, social conflict, and wars- the ultimate exclusion is de-humanization resulting in genocide.
There’s yet another method of avoiding the crowding stresses of our modern times by going back in time- what anthropologists term “revitalization movements” which are a growing social movement usually religious in nature because religions offer comfort in times of stress. Key words and phrases are “the good old days” and “again” as in Reagan’s “Let’s Make America Great Again”.
If anyone is interested a link to my research during the Covid-19 pandemic is provided below
An Anthropological perspective-
https://mahb.stanford.edu/.../social-distance-an.../
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Faith Geisel
Daniel Cring do you think this same mechanism occurs in other social animals or is exclusive to humans?
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Todd Anthony
One thing is a problem. Trump and his minions. The other is not a problem. Those who oppose him.
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Justin Steven
It's capitalism. Divide and conquer the masses. Whether it's poverty, racism, hunger, disease - we have the capability to put an end to all of it, but strife is profitable...
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Lj Robinson
The media loves the division especially P-BS
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Jay Choczynski
Ignorance and Arrogance
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George Tebbens
The media, including PBS NewsHour, has fomented bitter division among the American people. Journalism has long been the favored tool used by Liberals to take down Republican elected officials. This trend started with Washington Post journalists Woodward and Bernstein and their successful take down of Republican president Richard Nixon. Since then hordes of Leftist activists have entered the field of journalism with the determined goal of taking down Republican elected officials and discrediting everything they represent. Now the field of journalism is completely saturated with Liberal activists. That is without question the case with PBS NewsHour. Do you seriously believe any journalist would be hired by PBSNH if they didn't have rock solid Liberal bona fida? Not a chance in Hell. Go ahead, tell me how "unbiased" PBSNH is. I'll laugh in your face!
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Jane F. Armstrong-Nazar
If you continually express your hatred, disregard, disrespect and lack of caring for others, eventually they will stop listening to you and will move on without you. Currently, the left is upset that they didn't win the election and are trying to figure out how to win people back, they don't care about. It's too early to tell how this administration will do, but we should all hope for the best - as we did when saddled with Biden for 4 years.
21h
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Dan LaFrinier
Algorithms chasing your likes divide us all...
19h
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Barbara Ford
Yes well that’s nice! Well what do you specifically do about it? No checks and balances, unauthorised people getting access to Americans private files; Breaking laws; firing people without thought or merit! Etc??? What are you going to do about it??????
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Bobby McKinley
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Francis Thomas
Your best report since retirement Judy.
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Rosemary Maybelline
PBS encourages division with their obvious bias reporting and misinformation
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Ernesto Albert Barrera
How about a grown up media that doesn't focus on insults, gotcha talk, and tit-for-tat to the absolute exclusion of serious matters? There is a reason Trump won. It's due to an entire nation regressing to a middle school mindset and emotional psyche.
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George Sullivan
Honesty in media would go a long way toward fostering civility.
Russia, Russia, Russia.
Hitler, Hitler, Hitler.
Democracy is on the ballot…
22h
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Canyon Soledad
Democrats and identity politics. Telling groups of people, hey did you know that so and so hates you? Yes, but we don't, so vote for us. That kind of campaigning just brings out the worst in people.
23h
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Jan Ludwig
a smallish number of young people around 19 — between 1900 and 1910 decided, like Frances Perkins right here, she decided then she was going to help change America. It was not inevitable. It is not inevitable this time. But it could happen.
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Thomas Beck Jr.
Just quit being crying whining liars, DEMOCRATS.
Your spoiled loser displays are childish temper tantrums
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Tam Mat
Extra terrestrial…maybe.
22h
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Stephen Sicignano
Just another BS story.
There is No Constitutional Crisis...
You Lost the Election..
You're shedding voters...
Change is happening.
23h
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Kevin D Farris
Getting rid of the two-party system of government is the only way to unite the people. They work in conjunction behind the scenes to take polarizing positions in order to divide and conquer its citizens. If you don't understand the democrat and republican party are the second tier to the ones that actually control everything you better get your head examined.
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Bruce Lebovitz
A modern version of The Fairness Doctrine would be a good start.23h
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Tom Cartin
The media is the cause of this.
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Haley Clement
A very powerful, eye-opening segment
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Lance Sur
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Carl Stann
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Tommy Brewington
https://www.facebook.com/share/1HRQJXAJ2y/
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Hank Lincoln
Confirmation bias, fueled by silly and fake news sources and social media, make it easy to brainwash easy to influence people.
That’s why we’re where we are at.
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Christopher Duerr
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