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God in America
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Tarragontoo • 12 years ago
A comments:
Why does this series start so late in the history of this continent? Not examining the rich and diverse spiritual lives of the millions of people who lived here for thousands of years before Europeans arrived while not even mentioning the plague that followed their arrival - by far the largest mass die off of people in the history of the world - and the role religion played in those event and the ultimate takeover of this land boggles the mind. This episode plays like a highschool history textbook, woefully Eurocentric and largely devoid of the truth behind the rise of the United States on the backs of an entire people and their way(s) of life. Shame on Frontline for overlooking the elephant in the room while perpetuating the lies that still permeate our society. The history of America does not start in 1492!!!
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Scottbruggeman Tarragontoo • 12 years ago
You can only do so much with six hours.... Plus, you need a starting place. Europeans coming to North America seems as good a starting place as any, given the finite amount of time available for this series.
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Vmservices Guest • 12 years ago
Well, yes, the history of "America" does begin with the arrival of European explorers, one of whom was named Amerigo and from him this "new world" got its name. But, no, the history of this hemisphere does not begin then, however, that's not the story this series is telling.
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Konni Guest • 12 years ago
"... die-off ..." More like genocide.
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Marley54fd • 12 years ago
Religion: a history of ignorance, prejudice, slavery, murder and intolerance. It's a shame that in America today, you have to struggle to be free of religious ignorance and intolerance. I feel nothing but scorn and contempt for those that continue to propagate this lie. Religion is a lie that is in direct conflict of every bit of knowledge that we have ever learned about ourselves and about the natural world.
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cynicAL Marley54fd • 12 years ago
-Religion: a history of ignorance, prejudice, slavery, murder and intolerance.
>So atheists and the non-religious have no history of ignorance, prejudice, slavery, murder and intolerance? Think Columbine killers?
-It's a shame that in America today, you have to struggle to be free of religious ignorance and intolerance. I feel nothing but scorn and contempt for those that continue to propagate this lie.
>You "struggle to be free" because you're forced to believe something that you feel is an ignorant position? Get real. Struggle exists where opposing forces (physical or otherwise) are in conflict, and in America, you know damn well that you're not held against your own will by religious people. You are indeed free even if religious people verbalize their strong beliefs and you disagree with them. And intolerance? Is it not intolerant, then, to not tolerate religion and religious people?
-Religion is a lie that is in direct conflict of every bit of knowledge that we have ever learned about ourselves and about the natural world.
>Religion (to the individual) has helped individuals learn about themselves far beyond "...every bit of knowledge [they] have ever learned about [themselves] and the natural world." In other words, if you say that people only know so much about themselves (ref: "...every bit of knowledge we have ever learned..."), why do you make it sound like they're not supposed to keep further seeking other bits of knowledge that they HAVE NOT learned about themselves?
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Nathan S cynicAL • 12 years ago
"So atheists and the non-religious have no history of ignorance, prejudice, slavery, murder and intolerance? Think Columbine killers?"
That's a wonderful strawman argument, Cynical. Of course, non-believers are guilty of those same offenses. Replace the term "non-believers" with any other term, and the statement would still hold true. The only relevant point is to what degree non-believers are guilty of those offenses, relative to the believers. This question is not a matter of opinion. There are provable facts here.
Let's start with ignorance. Recent studies have shown that non-believers are the most knowledgable ABOUT DETAILS OF RELIGION.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.c...
That would be like engineers being more knowledgable about the law than lawyers were. If that were to be true, I think you'd have to feel pretty strongly that lawyers were more ignorant people, on average.
Let's also talk about murder. Look at the makeup of our prison population. The proportion of non-believers amongst violent criminals is vastly lower than their representation in the population at large (15%).
http://www.holysmoke.org/ic...
Intolerance? Please. A survey of Americans about who they'd prefer their children to marry shows that people fear bringing an atheist into the family more than any other group. The discrimination against blacks and gays is widely publicized, but I don't see any atheists as President, and there were openly gay congressman long before there was an openly atheist one.
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2...
I know it's hopeless bringing "facts" into a discussion with people who believe in god, but maybe there's a few folks out there on the fence, that haven't subordinated reason to childish fantasy and emotion.
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Choice cynicAL • 12 years ago
If you grew up in the US, ultimately religion taught you how to be an atheist as well.
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cynicAL Choice • 12 years ago
I grew up in the US, and religion did not teach me how to be an atheist.
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One in a thousand cynicAL • 12 years ago
You were born an atheist, just as every other American.
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Mello5757 cynicAL • 12 years ago
Methinks thou protesteth too much.
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Linda L Hill Marley54fd • 12 years ago
Religion is a man- made concept. God is Not, not a concept nor man-made. If you have not had a personal experience with God I feel sorry for you. God bless you with a personal experience. Linda L Hill
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NonChosenOne Linda L Hill • 12 years ago
Good for you to have had a personal experience with God and you have every right to pity the rest of humanity for you are so blessed, for your God has found favor in you. My question is why did God choose you? and not everyone under His/Her/Its dominion? Could it be that He may not have dominion over everyone? Why the mystery, why not just show His/Her/Its glory to the whole of humanity so that man can stop killing each other in Her name. Why is your God so particular and mysterious and choose just the selected few? You must be special and the rest of humanity who believe otherwise must be damned. Please keep thinking you are special and pity the rest of us, how else shall your religion flourish!
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I choose to be chosen NonChosenOne • 12 years ago
You seem confused Nonchosenone. You write: "My question is why did God choose you? and not everyone under His/Her/Its dominion?". The answer is: You too were chosen and everyone else has been chosen, but so far you have chosen to turn away. We are all chosen if we seek to be chosen. Everyone knows right from wrong inside. It's the side we choose to feed that grows. Do you want to forever hate your neighbour or choose to forgive their trespass? If you were to seek out what the example of Jesus is, perhaps you will find living within the guidelines of the example of Jesus which are acceptable to God, is not so bad after all. You also ask: "Could it be that He may not have dominion over everyone?" When it comes to life and death and all that you experience in life for "not a sparrow falls without His leave" all is the will of this God who loves you. You choose to follow the path or struggle in the underbrush. Coming back to your question: if not under His dominion, you are under the dominion of the other fellow and you live a life of torment of always being hungry, always seeking, never finding. You don't know contentment. You have free choice and that free choice is this: Do you trust God or not? That's it. Jesus says the kingdom of Heaven is within and so it is. As you feed the side of love and compassion that is the side that grows. "Seek and you shall find" Jesus says and the place to seek is in His words which are only found in the "New Testament". Now if you truely want answers to your questions. Here is a way to do it if you have the guts to ask for and accept the gift. This is what you do. Ask God to show you in a way you can't possibly mistake that He actually does exist. Keep asking as the example Jesus tells us "ask and you shall receive". Once you have your own personal experience, seek out His truth in the "New Testament". Not in churches as they have lost their way. Not in the Old Testament, which the Book of Hebrews tells us the agreement between God and humanity is flawed and meant to fade away. But in the words of Jesus, found in the "New Testament". "Pop Christianity" which supports torture is not representative of the teachings of "The Christ", but that's another subject. Please do ask for God to touch you in a way you can't mistake. You'll discover the peace of letting go and letting God take care of it all. May God bless you.
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Choice I choose to be chosen • 12 years ago
Having been "born again" and "chosen" several times in my younger years... and then "banished" from several churches for having opinions that were more "scientific," the christians finally pulled enough threads from my garment that I could see what "religion" was all about. You can have the same feeling from being hypnotized, as born again... for example. But the human brain is just a complex computer, and the "choices" we make are just "decisions" and happen just like calculations in a computer. Humans ALWAYS make decisions based on what's "comfortable" or "uncomfortable." Those decisions are based on the data in our brains that either came with us from genetics, or from experiences in life. If that's too scientific for you to understand, then you haven't had enough experiences in life for it to make sense.
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NonChosenOne I choose to be chosen • 12 years ago
Not only do you speak for God, you seem make judgment on someone who you don't have any idea about. I am so profoundly sadden by people who thinks that people who does no agree with his/her religious view is someone who has not seek nor do no seek the spiritual path. It is this unflinching arrogance and self-professed righteousness that keeps the world at war. Compassion is not a personal relationship with god but caring relationships with your neighbors and without rendering judgment. This is what Jesus taught. How can you so quickly dismiss the Old Testament and choose selected passages from the New Testament and claim you know God and the arrogance to speak on his behalf. I don't see you as a true seeker but someone who uses religion to boost your ego. Go study the historicity of Judaism and Christianity, Read the whole bible and seek some understanding from people out of your faith. Add Hinduism and Buddhism and some understand of Islam. Maybe then you can start to understand compassion. But you can just stay with Jesus for he is a wise teacher of compassion. Unfortunately Christianity has blanketed his teaching with the ideas of moral and religious supremacy and self-righteous, all manners of greed, arrogance, pride and power. I do not wish god to bless you or anyone, but may all of humanity, sinners and all, be blessed, and not just some self-professed chosen ones!
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MM NonChosenOne • 12 years ago
You are blessed in your understanding. Thank you for your worldly perspective...other religions speak highly of Jesus without having to claim a "chosen" relationship with him..he is respected as a teacher and they do not condemn His Word because the religion formed around His name is not theirs. A wise man once said, " Embrace the man who speaks OF God; Beware the man who speaks FOR God".
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Rod I choose to be chosen • 12 years ago
It concerns me when I read the way you seem to dismiss the Old Testament. The apostles, and Paul, and Jesus himself, along with those in the early church, had a much higher view of their scriptures. God's covenant with humanity was and is everlasting - God's faithfulness to God's covenant, and to us, was demonstrated in God's entering our existence in Christ. When Paul asserts, "all scripture is inspired by God", he is referring to his own Hebrew scriptures, what we now refer to as the "Old Testament". What we refer to as the "New Testament" did not exist, in its current form, until many generations after Jesus life, death and resurrection. To divorce the two reflects a way of thinking that is more faithful to the ideas and teachings of gnosticism than those of Christianity. Be careful. God bless you.
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Hiasm12 NonChosenOne • 12 years ago
God loves everyone. He gives us the right to chose to love Him back or not.
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LS NonChosenOne • 12 years ago
You made me smile, NonChosenOne. I have a news for you: You are chosen also and you are deeply Loved. However you also shall choose. God bless you.
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NonChosenOne LS • 12 years ago
Thanks for your blessing. I assume you speak for God. May peace be with you as well!
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LS NonChosenOne • 12 years ago
Thank you. Peace is what will carry me through this times.
I would not dare to speak for God unless He called me to do so. I spoke of the Truth that I know: God Loves not selected people but all. The kind of Love we find in Christ I could not find anywhere on earth : the Love which heals wounded hearts and brings peace. Even today He pours His Love into our hearts shall we choose to seek Him.
Where I walk "compassion" seem to be a word not too many people familiar with and it seems like it has no place in life of many people. Did not you think that what seem to be simple enough to understand, like : "Love your neighbor as yourself" is not something that is easy and natural for us to do? Unless our hearts are changed by the Love of God...
May His blessing rest on you and may He be the Joy of your heart. May you find what you seek in Him and may you know rest.
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Pray-Ski-Alaska NonChosenOne • 12 years ago
God doesn't choose people but he gives people the choice, because he loves you so much! The choice whether you are willing to have a relationship with him or not, some people have had a personal experience with God because thats how close of an relationship they have with Him, and others do not because they aren't willing to have a relationship with him. Having a relationship with God is the hardest, and best thing you will ever do. Sorry if this isnt clear, I am still a beginner in my walk with Christ.
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Mosspointdave Linda L Hill • 12 years ago
Perhaps religion is the poison fruit in the tree of knowledge?
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RWB65 Linda L Hill • 12 years ago
You are right that it is not about religion but about relationship. How do you have a relationship with an "unseen being"? That is called faith, having hope in something not seen. Jesus told Thomas he had believed that Jesus had been raised from the grave after three days because Thomas had seen Jesus, pierced arms, feet and side, with his own eyes but Jesus added that "blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe". Relationship is developed by spending time together, just like any relationship. God speaks to us through His word (The Bible) and we speak to Him through prayer.
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Lea30 Linda L Hill • 12 years ago
Not to be facetious, but what does it mean to have a "personal experience with God." Did you see/hear/feel/touch your God? I have never ever known anyone who has, so my question is real. I'd like to know what your person-to-person experience was. My concern, again, is legitimate. Please explain. I am in my late 70's and have not yet experienced a personal connection with a non human... Thank you for your response.
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LS Lea30 • 12 years ago
Dear Lea30, "personal experience with God" is more then touch or see. Personal Experience with God is much deeper then that, however one of the most common experiences is the reception of Love. Love which is poured directly into our hearts, of which we are absolutely certain. Love which sets us free from condemnation. There is so much of it around us. Dear Lea30, receiving the Love of God is the real "experience", the one you can feel. Trust Christ with it.
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aKaramazov Lea30 • 12 years ago
“The secret of man's being is not only to live but to have something to live for.” - Fyodor Doestoevsky. I believe that quote describes Lindalhill11's personal experience with God. What do you mean by "see/hear/feel/touch"? That can mean many things. If those are things you do through "living", then you can have a personal experience with God (if you are "living for" Him). If you have not had an experience with a non human by now, I feel bad for you as humanity is broken. And if it is only humanity, or something lesser, that you live for, you are even more greatly to be pitied. But then I am only a stupid human.
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O2bscarlett Marley54fd • 12 years ago
I think you have been misinformed and brainwashed about your view of religion and history. Sadly, many in our society share your ignorance.
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Islam Zarrin63 O2bscarlett • 12 years ago
Love you
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Clamchowdah Marley54fd • 12 years ago
Humanity: a history of ignorance, prejudice, slavery, murder and intolerance. It's a shame that in America today, you have to struggle to be free of intellectual snobbery and atheism. I feel nothing but scorn and contempt for those that propogate sin. Intellectual snobbery and atheism is a lie that is in direct conflict of every bit of knowledge that we have ever learned about ourselves, the natural world, and the soul.
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Mello5757 Marley54fd • 12 years ago
Secularism - a history of mayhem and cruelty. Look around you. It is the "religious" people of the world who are the most giving, forgiving and caring. Maybe you've learned from the wrong teachers. Try the Bible. God has made it simple - either we believe His Word or we don't. Those who don't will reject the Bible in favor of secular knowledge. Those who do will find that the world was fashioned by God and everything in it operates according to His Plan. Therefore, there can be no contradiction between pure science and the Word of God. It is only in mankind's faulty interpretation of facts that so-called contradiction appears.
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RJM Marley54fd • 12 years ago
Congratulations for demonstrating the freedom allowed you to say what you just said.
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Dave • 12 years ago
Whenever someone says, "God is..." "God wants..." etc., he's pulling the rest of the sentence right out of his rear end. A bunch of nonsense, religion is.
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Post Tenebras Lux Dave • 12 years ago
The problem with your argument is that it ignores the fact that people are different from animals. No animal seeks after meaning to life. If you listen to music, or look at a piece of art, or read a work of poetry then you find out quickly that man has a need for a meaning to life. As Calvin so excellently puts it “you cannot find a man anywhere, however uncivilized or wild, who is without some idea of religion. This is because we have all been created to know the majesty of our creator and, in knowing it, to think more highly of it than anything else. We are to honor it with all awe, love and reverence.” The problem with the modern philosophy is that it insists that all we need to understand about the universe can be found in the uniformity of natural causes in a closed system. This will never lead to a universal (or in other words a law) and cannot lead to any meaning to life which is why the evolutionists have concluded that there is no meaning to life. Ironically this is exactly what the Bible explains as Calvin bears witness when he states “indeed, it is so very necessary for us to be plentifully taught about God, and we really ought to let the universe do it for us. And it would do, if it were not for the fact that our coarse insensitivity is blind to such a great light. But it is not only in being blind that we sin. Such is our waywardness that, when it considers God’s works, there is nothing that it does not perceive in an evil and perverse sense. It turns upside down all the heavenly wisdom which otherwise shines so clearly there. We therefore have to come to the Word of God where, through his works, God is very well described to us.” That is also why the early scientists believed in the uniformity of natural causes, but not in a closed system; because God still maintains his providential control over the universe.
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Choice Post Tenebras Lux • 12 years ago
ONE NATION, under 369 "gods"... so which "god" are you referring to Post?
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Jefferson Dave • 12 years ago
Just like the Founding Fathers ? Study your history, Dave.
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Tim Jefferson • 12 years ago
Your comment illustrates a major point of the series: Americans feeling of having a special relationship with God. The "Founders" are seen in the same way as Christians hold the Partiarchs and Apostles. But they were just men; when someone counters an argument with the "Founders" I cringe. They were brilliant men, but eighteenth century men, I don't care what the Founders thought any more than I care what color the previous owner of my house would paint the living room. It is the twenty-first century, we neen new ideas and to reject some of the old.
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Rod Tim • 12 years ago
That can be true, Tim, be we must all beware of the danger of 'chronological snobbery', the idea that 'newer is always better'. We have the advantage of having seen more mistakes of history that those people 300 years ago. But that also brings with it the responsibility to make better choices at this point in history. Who knows, in 300 years' time, someone might look back at us and think, "what a bunch of morons! didn't they learn anything from history?"
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Daniel Tim • 12 years ago
My God - I can imagine what kind if new ideas you're talkng about. And by the way Founders is a perfectly good word. Someone even "Fonded" you. Pity.
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David Daniel • 12 years ago
Climate change, Internet, Space age, Biological technology, Environmental consciousness. Globalization, Pop culture, Equality for all faiths and sexual orientation, Atheism....
The entire world is changing, there is no time to cling to the old rusty book written by people in the desert thousands year ago. This century is about technology and environmental consciousness, about global connection, understanding and peace. You either move forward or prepare to be left behind
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Seeker David • 12 years ago
Your argument is a valid one. However, the bible or old rusty book as you call it is filled with moral and philosophical wisdom if not for you then for others. As a Christian I do not live in a cave physically or metaphorically so the bible has not negatively impacted my ability to live and interact in this modern world. If anything it has given me clarity, peace, and a level of objectivity. There is room in our highly technological world for the bible if one chooses as well as the Torah, Koran, and all other holy books of faith.
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Rockytopranch2 Jefferson • 12 years ago
"The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice."
---S. Clemmens
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henry • 12 years ago
I certainly understand some of the negative comments towards the aura of the entire series. The series virtually presents religion (in hallowed tones) as the galvanizing force of American society.One could better argue that the history of American society is one of extrication from religious authority and domination by religious majorities. The idea of religion as molding our destiny, shaping our society, and defining our mission seems a Puritan idea that we have gradually abandoned in favor of pluralism and tolerance. And unfortunately, much of the "molding" of American society by religion has been reactionary; the documentary has a tone as though the overwhelming effect has been positive.
The emphasis on narrative often leaves one wondering what the truth is. For example, northern evangelical churches are narratively presented as hotbeds of abolitionism, though in one disclaiming line the documentary notes that "only a small minority were abolitionists." Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation is presented as the result of some newly discovered religious faith; but one wonders what is the basis for this conclusion--were pragmatic considerations perhaps uppermost? Lincoln's statements in the Second Inaugural (referring to God's judgment on the entire nation) are presented in the documentary as a reiteration of the Puritans' belief in the righteous judgments of God. Is this view really laudable--punishing the children for the sins of the fathers? The remarks reveal Lincoln's own troubled spiritual thinking, and yes, his reluctance to claim moral certainty. Later yet, the Scopes trial is presented as a watershed event in the public's attitude towards fundamentalism? Has the documentary not exaggerated this in the interest of narrative drama?
It would be interesting for PBS to have a panel (including non-theists) discussing some of these points.
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Morkxtwain henry • 12 years ago
I am asking PBS to do a follow-up. DNA has closed the door on all past "wisdom." I was 60 years old before I realize there was a safe, scientific 3rd option to Religion or Evolution. One of my books is titled: Darwin the Deist vs. Dawkins the Atheist. Charles knew he did not have the tools to prove his hypothesis... settling for the "Creator's plan" of inheritance and growth. I encourage you to discuss how to make DNA equality work in the face of Religious emotion-without-fact.
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Murdock Morkxtwain • 12 years ago
Why do you need to have a "safe" option to Religion or Evolution. I am first and foremost a scientist, drawn to facts and skeptical of many things that people believe outright without asking "Why?" I am also a Christian, and believe in God. It took me years to understand where the two can work together. Natural Selection occurs every second of every day. When a species adapts to new situations, changes to survive in the changing landscape that is Evolution. Science gives us proof of the natural world, but it still can't explain everything. We are a collection of atoms and chemical processes, just like every other living thing on this Earth. Where then does the processes of thought, of dreaming for the future and of self come from? There's something more to humans as well as other species on this Earth that science can not prove and that is where religion fills those voids.
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MRL Murdock • 12 years ago
No "need" to create a god to fill in gaps of our knowledge. How about just patience? Our lack of knowledge of things 2000 years ago leads humans to crazy conclusions about what we know and don't know.
You seem to imply that certain things are "unknowable." I don't buy that for an instant -- and even if I did, wouldn't feel the need to invent something spectacularly unknowable and un-proveable to "fill" that gap.
Folks have recently been saying "thank god" for saving the Chilean miners. Why not "screw god" for trapping them in the first place?
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Rod MRL • 12 years ago
Good question. And you've raised a good point - when people say "thank god", what kind of god are they talking about? The assumption that god played a part in saving them, or trapping them in the first place, says a lot about the kind of god people don't believe in. Tell you what, MRL, you tell me more about the god you don't believe in, I'll tell you more about the God I do believe in, and we both might just learn something from each other...
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Lee MRL • 12 years ago
Shouldn't they blame go on the mining owners who put this people in dangers way, day in and day out? Why does God get the blame. Most of humanities problems are caused by human beings. Sorry don't follow your logic. But then again, I'm just an ignorant Christian with two degrees. Why is that? Instead of giving us sound arguments, you call us names. Some of the most intelligent men in the history of the world were religious men. Most of the early scientists were priests and monks. Don't forget history to prove your point.
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