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Exposing the DISTURBING ISRAELI Lobby inside Australia | Ex-Foreign Minister Bob Carr

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조회수 401,578회 2025. 8. 22.

In this exclusive interview, former Australian Foreign Minister, the Hon. Bob Carr reveals the deep underlying influence of the Israeli lobby in Australian politics – and how it has long shaped Canberra’s stance on Israel–Palestine.

Once a co-founder of the Labor Friends of Israel with Bob Hawke in 1977, Carr has undergone a dramatic transformation – from being hailed in Tel Aviv as an “honourable gentile” to now becoming one of the loudest critics of Israel’s brutality in Gaza.

👉 In this sit-down, we cover:

00:00 - Introduction to Bob Carr

01:36 - How did you shift away from once favouring the Israeli Narrative?

03:28 - Reflections on time as Foreign Minister at the United Nations Vote for Palestine

06:03 - How deep is the Israeli Lobby Influence in Australia?

08:41 - Does the Israeli Lobby inhibit democracy?

10:32 - When Bob Carr criticised Israeli Settlements in New York

11:46 - The impeding backlash Bob Carr faced

14:45 - Responding to Allegations of Anti-Semitism

16:31 - Is this a genocide?

18:32 - How damaging is Israeli's Settlement Expansionism to Peace?

20:46 - What role should Australia play in opposing settlements

23:34 - Responding to Netanyahu Slamming Albanese

25:52 - What do you make of Australia's recognition of Palestine?

27:38 - Why has it taken so long for the Labor Party to condemn Israel?

29:41 - Responding to the Australian Media

31:34 - Is media bias driven by Zionist Lobbying?

34:07 - Can you balance between diplomacy and being morally upright

35:47 - Should Albanese be doing more?

37:27 - Should Australia Arrest Netanyahu?

38:03 - Should Australia start sanctioning Israel?

39:36 - What is your message in closing to the Australian Public?

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Introduction to Bob Carr

The Israel Jewish lobby in Australia is a foreign influence operation. It's designed to put the interests of Israel

above the interests of Australia and its foreign policy. No one else has an operation as well funded. No other

country has an operation with offices in every Australian capital city. No one else organizes donations to attempt to

elevate its influence in the way the Jewish lobby does in Australia. This is how they operate. We're not going to be

intimidated by the pressure of the Jewish lobbying in Australia. If a country is knowingly implementing a

genocide, uprooting civilians, sending them on death marches, reducing the

population to one of walking corpses, and allowing the IDF to shoot at

children. Do we deal with the perpetrators of this as a normal nation? I don't think we can. Today we are

joined by one of the most experienced figures in Australian politics, the former foreign minister of Australia and

the longest serving premier of New South Wales, the Honorable Bob Carr. Thank you for being with us, Bob. It's a pleasure to be with you and

talking to the community. Thank you very much today. Bob, you're you're recognized as one of Australia's

strongest critics of Israel and a defender of Palestinian rights. uh you

were you know famously photographed amongst those leading the historic march uh march for humanity over the iconic

Sydney harour bridge. Earlier in your career in 1977 you co-ounded with Bob Hawk the labor friends of Israel uh

earning you a reputation you know of the honorable gentile and ally of Israel. What particular moment in your career

did your perspective shift? I think it was gradual. Um, and it reflected me

How did you shift away from once favouring the Israeli Narrative?

getting to know Palestinians and their stories because none of us back in the 70s

knew a Palestinian, knew a story of a Palestinian family,

knew what massacres had accompanied the establishment of the state of Israel. We didn't know that. But it it wasn't in

the mind of a even an educated person in the western world. We were blind to that

story. And one simmering concern that

that eroded any faith I had in the state of Israel was the spread of settlements.

The spread of settlements because I'm thinking of the late 90s, the early 2000s.

It was pretty clear that the settlements were serious

and they were at the very least going to complicate the establishment of a Palestinian state. And it appeared they

were being done to block the establishment of a Palestinian state. Despite all the

assurances we received from spokespeople for Israel, they were

being done to block. And today, even as we speak, we're having it

confirmed by explicit statements from members of the Israeli cabinet that

these settlements will stop a Palestinian state being set up.

I I find that very interesting. I I want to take you back to a time when you were the foreign minister of Australia and the United Nations wanted to have a vote

on upgrading the Palestinian status to a non-member observer state. uh prime

minister at the time Julia Gillard wanted to follow the US and Israel and you pushed back and you in fact secured

Reflections on time as Foreign Minister at the United Nations Vote for Palestine

an abstension. In your diary you later asked whether Labour's dependence on donations from the Jewish community

shaped her stance. How significant was that moment for you to be able to get the abstension and what did that

experience teach you about Australian politics? The big thing it taught me was

that in promoting the rights of Palestinians in a time when it was considered a

dangerous opinion was really pushing a door that was halfopen.

Because when I tested my opinion with the Parliamentary Labor Party

after Julia Gillard made it clear in cabinet she was not going to be moved to change our vote in the general assembly.

When I tested it in the parties uh caucus,

the the the meeting of all the members of parliament, I found I found that they

felt the same way about Israel. And it's contempt. It's it's half hidden contempt for a

two-state solution as I did. And when I started discussions with people, I found

they'd reach the same view. They'd reached the same view. And that that was true in cabinet. A majority of the

cabinet agreed with me that Australia should not oppose this motion in the

general assembly to upgrade the status of the Palestinian delegation. It's very

interesting where it was sit around that cabinet table. Um and they were saying instead of abstaining,

why don't we vote yes? Why don't we vote yes? And we we came late last year

Mhm. to vote yes. But it was this was considered a risky opinion when I was

arguing the case against the wishes of the prime minister who was my boss. But

the big lesson out of it is that ordinary members of parliament

whose views I hadn't yet asked about had reached the same position I had. The

support for Israel was was very very shallow and people like me had

begun to wonder about this whole settlement expansion process. Okay. You know in the US the lobby

groups such as Apac they hold a big sway over politicians in the form of donations and funded trips to Israel.

You've previously spoken about a similar Israeli lobby influence here in Australia. From your experience and

knowledge, how deep is this influence? And should Australians be concerned? I think Australians should be concerned.

How deep is the Israeli Lobby Influence in Australia?

I have said I'm on the record saying that the Israel lobby, the Israel Jewish lobby, I think is more accurate because

that's the term Ajac uses. The Israel Jewish Lobby in Australia is a a foreign

influence operation. It's designed to put the interests of Israel above the interests of Australia

and its foreign policy. And uh no one else has an operation as well funded. No

one else, no other country has an operation with offices in every Australian capital city. Um no one else

organizes donations to attempt to elevate its influence uh

in the way the the Jewish lobby does in Australia. Now, this is simply a fact of life. And I had uh I record in my

diaries of a foreign minister, and they've never been contradicted. Uh what Kevin Rudd said to me about this, the

reference he made to it about money being raised. Um Tony Burke in one of

the cabinet exchanges said that uh uh in just about every discussion he'd had of

how we vote on Israel and Palestine, someone had made reference to the importance of of campaign donations as a

consideration in this. And the model for the Jewish lobby is what happens in the

United States. Uh if any member of Congress or the Senate expresses a view

critical of Israel, sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, you can guarantee

that someone will be funded by supporters of Israel to run against them

in the next primary. And the person they find to run against the incumbent

may be someone who's never expressed a view about Israel and Palestine. But there will be a wellfunded opponent. Now

I remember years ago I had a meeting with someone from the Jewish lobby in Washington who just spelt this out. He

spelt out to a group of us considered to be supporters of Israel as we were at

the time that this is how they operate. This is how they operate. And if anyone

even in a remote Rocky Mountain state or in a um an ins state with an

insignificant population like Montana, um any Congress person who departs from

the pro-Israel line can be guaranteed, they would guarantee that they would

have a primary opponent who would be well funded. in the Australian context. I mean, how

Does the Israeli Lobby inhibit democracy?

does this impact democracy? Oh, it's a distortion of democracy because of instead of considering

our foreign policy priorities and interests, we're swayed

to take account of the desires of the Jewish community.

Um and they're very explicit that they I mean they will ask if if there's the

smallest departure they will immediately seek a meeting with the prime minister to put their

case. Uh prime ministers from the liberal side Malcolm Fraser was one um

have confirmed this. Um, certainly Kevin Rudd confirms it when he when he made a

decision to kick out two Mosad agents in the Israeli embassy in Canberra because

Mossad in an operation in the Gulf States had used someone who had an

Australian passport to complete its mission. Uh, Rudd protested as he was absolutely right to

do and and kicked out a couple of Mosad agents. Um there was an immediate

request from the leadership of the Jewish community in Australia to speak to the prime minister. Um so the lobby

the lobby in conflates their desires as a community

with the foreign policym for Australia. And I think people only now have woken

up to the sheer uh bravado

um and arrogance of an approach that says hang on. How dare you? I mean I got that

response all the time as foreign minister. For example um and I like to be specific. Here's a concrete example.

When Bob Carr criticised Israeli Settlements in New York

As foreign minister in New York for a meeting of the general assembly, I issued a statement expressing opposition

to the latest burst of Israeli settlement. Mhm.

And I got a request conveyed through Bruce Walpie, an adviser to Julia

Gillard, to meet quote the community unquote to discuss this. And he meant

the leadership of the Jewish community. And I said no. Um opposition to

settlement expansion is based on the fact that in international law they are

plainly illegal. We oppose them

in line with the policy of our like-mindeds, our partners, our allies,

except for the US, which doesn't use the word illegal, but at the time used the word illegitimate. So I I I I thought it

was um simply impertinent for the Jewish community to say, "Oh goodness, the

foreign minister of Australia has expressed opposition to settlement expansion. We need to we need to get him

online and straighten him out." So have you ced any slack for coming out

The impeding backlash Bob Carr faced

with this particular perspective? No, it appeared in my diaries. I spelled it out in my diaries and then I wrote

another book uh a memoir called Run for Your Life and it had a chapter with the

title Me in the Lobby. Mhm. Um but I'm not going to be silenced. I

wasn't silenced when as premier I agreed to a request to present a peace prize

not awarded by me but awarded by Sydney University to the distinguished and respected

Palestinian spokesperson. Yes. Hanari and all of a sudden there was a bullying

campaign by the Jewish lobby to force me as premier

of New South Wales to pull out of the function. I'd given my word that I would

do this. I thought it was something that supported the interests of Israel because it would be an award and

acknowledgement to a Palestinian who supported a peaceful road to Palestinian statethood. wasn't good enough. H

wasn't good enough for them. Wasn't good enough. Um so they mounted a campaign of petitions and lobbying. I

got a phone call from a senior business figure asking me why was I doing this? As if it was abnormal behavior

to talk to representatives of the Palestinian people. She was able to have conversations with left-leaning Israeli

politicians, but somehow it was considered out of bounds that I, as premier of New South Wales, could talk

to her and present an award, an award made not by me, but by Sydney

University. And they got they got Katherine Grryer who had been a member

of the committee that made the award to pull out of the function

and Lucy Turnbull who was then I think the deputy Lord Mayor who'd agreed to go to pull out of it and

I just said I will not pull out of it. I've given my word I will present this peace prize. I've didn't that my my

commitment is taken seriously by a large Arabic background community

um in in in New South Wales indeed in Australia and by a small Palestinian community as

well. What would it look like if having given my word I responded from lobbying

from another community and turned my back would have been it would have been appalling. I stood firm

and you know the remarkable thing is the feedback I got from uh ordinary Australians without Arabic background.

Yes. Um was massively supportive. You are a man of integrity, Bob. So um

and you've also been quite outspoken about Gaza and you've even compared the scenes to Holocaustike scenarios. In

response to your comments, Alex Rifchen from the Executive Council of Australian Jewelry, he called your views and I

quote, shameful and utterly despicable. and he said that you show deep contempt for members of the Jewish community.

Responding to Allegations of Anti-Semitism

Look, it's shameful, utterly despicable uh giving effect to his deep contempt

for members of the Jewish community and particularly its leadership. How do you respond to comments like this

and do you still stand by your statements? I stand by them absolutely and they've grown stronger in the time

since I've made them as the evidence has amount evidence has mounted of war

crimes and in particular the use of famine against a civilian population.

The analogy with I use the Warsaw ghetto reference. Yes. Of starving

men, women and children of starving civilians has been confirmed. Has been confirmed. and um the impertinence of

him conflating criticism of Israel

with anti-semitism which he's done in other contexts both of me and others is um a shocking

degeneration into abuse um that can't be supported.

What he's doing is conflating criticism of the genocidal conduct of the IDF

under the command of Prime Minister Netanyahu with extremist ministers in his

government cheering from the sidelines and inciting more violence against

Palestinian civilians. Um, this is what I'm confronting. And it

is actually difficult to come up with words to describe the outrageousness, the inhumanity being

inflicted by the IDF under that political command. Would you say it's genocide? Yes. Yes. If you destroy 80%

Is this a genocide?

of a people's housing, if you cut off their supply of food and

medicine, if you up the dial on the level of civilian targets,

you will permit and live with and regard as collateral damage. If you don't allow

portable water, if you flood the tent settlements

with polluted water, setting off diseases,

if you don't allow medicine and food to reach even children or pregnant women in

hospital, what other word can you use? What other word does a dictionary give us? What other word can you find in a

thesaurus but the planned murder of a people? It's

what the convention against genocide genocide drafted and lobbied for by a

very determined survival survivor of the Holocaust in Poland. Um intended

to be outlured. This is this is directed at civilians destroying their housing

reducing them to living in unsanitary conditions intense. I can't believe

what additional evidence would be required to have people say if you do this to a people to a population of 2

and a half million it can't be described in any other terms than genocide.

You've previously said that the Israeli lobby was able to stop even routine criticism of the settlement expansion

and you mentioned the settlements. In your perspective and understanding of the situation, how damaging is Israel's

settlement policy to the freedom and the future of the Palestinian people and what do you think the public needs to

understand most about it? I think the world needs to understand that settlements are being designed to block

How damaging is Israeli's Settlement Expansionism to Peace?

the establishment of a contiguous land that is the Palestinian state. The

world since the early 1990s has insisted on

as the essential path to a peace between Jews and Arabs. That's what it's about.

Uh the world from the early 1990s has insisted on a twostate solution. Um

Israel pursuing settlements since 1967. Its government always advised by its own

advisers. This is illegal. It's a breach of the Geneva protocols.

The fourth Geneva uh protocol out of the Geneva Conventions bans a state that

takes territory in war from settling its own population on it. Precisely what

Israel has been doing since 1967. As I said, with legal advisers to Israeli

prime minister saying, "You should be aware, prime minister, this is a breach of international law." And now you have

a minister in Netanyahu's government saying the latest settlement expansion is a glorious thing because it buries

the prospect of a Palestinian state. I started to worry a quarter of a century

ago about the spread of settlements. I was assured by uh Australian Jews who

are supporters of Israel that don't worry, don't worry, Bob. If there's a peace settlement, those settlements on

the West Bank will be quickly dismantled. So, so urgently,

does the Israeli population want a peace deal? But now we know we're being lied to. When Netanyahu told me when I was in

his office as foreign minister that he once a two-state solution had given a

speech only days earlier supporting one. He was lying. The plan all along was to

use the settlements to to block the prospect of a Palestinian sovereignty

being created with the support of the world community on the West Bank. What role should Australia play in

What role should Australia play in opposing settlements

opposing these settlements? Oh, Australia should um for example, it sounds a modest thing. Australia should

require that any products from Israel be identified as coming from a settlement

if that's where they're produced. So that uh if I'm looking at uh dates in a

supermarket and I see that this comes from a settlement,

um I make a decision as a consumer, as is my right, not to buy them. not to buy

them. Of course, I think there'd be a lot of consumers these days watching a genocide unfold who'd make a decision

not to buy something from Israel just ex just just asserting their right as a consumer. Certainly, I won't.

Um um what approach and this raises a bigger question of what approach we can

take to a country that is coldbloodedly implementing a genocide. I've described

what a genocide why this is a genocide. Destroy their housing, deny them fresh

drinking water, cut off the supply of medicines, um reduce food to a trickle,

but amounts bottom line sum total, this is a genocide. There's no other word for it. But if a state is knowingly applying

this, yes, against a civilian population, forcing people on what must

be the the most wretched journey imaginable, their home behind them, blown up, uh, as

Israel is planning to do with all the housing in Gaza City, leaving for a life

intense with reports circulating that they'll be offered the prospect of going to live in

Libya. or South Sudan.

I ask the Israel lobby, I ask supporters of Israel, can you put yourself

in the minds of that family? The home's being blown up. They've left

behind most of their their belongings. They're making a journey perhaps on foot because

they can't afford to rent a truck to a future in a tent.

Imagine what that would be like. Where's the humanity of people in the the Jewish

lobby in Australia? They haven't uttered a word of criticism of the IDF's

behavior. Not a word. Recently, Australia has made a quite a bold move in wanting to recognize a Palestinian

state. Despite the many conditions that surround this recognition, it nonetheless represents a major shift in the Australian official stance.

Netanyahu has come out to slam the Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albani for his decision, calling him out

Responding to Netanyahu Slamming Albanese

directly on X, and I state, and I quote, "History will remember Albani for what he is, a weak politician who betrayed

Israel and abandoned Australia's Jews." I mean, you've met Netanyahu in person.

What do you make of his comments? Well, even the Israel lobby, even the Jewish lobby in Australia says they have

not been abandoned by Prime Minister Albenezy. It is an absurd smear.

Mhm. without any evidentiary base. And it's a shocking thing to say and it

says everything about Netanyahu and nothing about Anthony Albanesi who has made a decision that the leadership of

France, the United Kingdom, Germany, Canada and most of the world's nation

nations has made to condemn what is happening in Gaza

and in the case of all of those European countries except Germany at this stage.

to recognize Palestine. So he's criticizing Albaneseing in this extremist language um for doing no more

than Macron or Stalmer or Carney has done

and for criticizing something that no one else in the world will support. IDF

war crimes against a civilian population. War by starvation. a death toll among children that's not equaled

in any other recent conflict. Albanesei

should be accorded hero status and I think would be by the Australian population for standing up and branding

this as wrong. I think that the reaction of Australians is that uh including

interestingly some Jewish Australians is that it is simply wrong to say this about our prime minister. Even the even

the Jewish lobby in Australia doesn't support what Netanyahu has done. It it's further confirmation of the isolation of

Israel as Israel implements what we can describe as a rolling

genocide directed at a a vulnerable, wretched, broken civilian population.

What do you make of Australia's recognition of Palestine?

What do you make of the of Australia's stance to recognize a state of Palestine? I mean, our network here ran

a story 10 years ago to date in August about the Labour parties passing a resolution to recognize Palestine. Isn't

this way overdue from your perspective? Oh yes. And why now? I've been advocating it um in a

tentative way from 2014 in a decisive way from

at least 2016. Um and Australia should have Australia

should have shown a bit of leadership in this. Um it was the way the world was going as we now know. It was a

defensible response to the settlement expansion that has been of such concern and was so

obviously at least in the uh last 15 or 20 years so obviously directed at

staltifying the establishment of the Palestinian state in line with the the

world's desire for a two-state solution. um recognition of Palestine would have

been a very reasonable response by Australia uh being ready to prove itself a responsible creative middle power. um

you know for 15 years I I got up at a Labour Party conference after I'd served

as foreign minister just as a rank and file delegate speaking in a Sydney town hall and spoke from the floor for

recognition in 2014.

You've mentioned Tony Burke, Australian Minister of Home Affairs at the moment. He came out attacking Netanyahu by

stating that strength is not through how many people you can blow up. Do you think there's a shift in the Australian

Labor Party? I mean, why has it taken such a long time for us to hear such bold statements emerge from party ranks?

Why has it taken so long for the Labor Party to condemn Israel?

I think we're I think we're facing a brutality that can't be denied. Uh it's

possible for the world to overlook the spasmotic violence, savage though it has

been, against uh some vulnerable Palestinians in the occupied territories

um on the West Bank. Um but now this is taking place on a

massive scale and um it's a it's a death sentence

being rolled out uh directed at a civilian population

with with as I've I've said this before with with it seems

uh a real malice for for children. Mhm. I I saw this in the pre previous wars in

Gaza. I remember I think at the war, it was the war before this one, there were

Palestinian boys playing soccer on a beach and each of them was taken out by

IDF marksmen. And I thought, what is it in the thinking of the Israeli Defense

Forces that sees it permissible um to take out the lives of children?

There have been credible reports of boys who've been sent by their families to collect food at distribution centers

who've been shot because they've arrived there early or arrived at the dist

distribution center late. And so they're standing there vulnerable.

And there are reports that it's happening in a patterned way. And I just

think the scale of this is what has got people to speak in

stronger language than they might have over isolated violence

in small in villages and the fringes of towns on the occupied West Bank.

Responding to the Australian Media

You're a former journalist uh and we've seen some media outlets strongly attack Labour's recognition of Palestine. Some

headlines that we've seen recently from the Australian a disgraceful day for Australia. Daily Telegraph saying it's a

slap in the face. Is the Australian media partly sort of responsible for fanning division in the face of

allegations of this of this genocide in Gaza? Yeah. Well, the thing I can say with some confidence is those media campaigns

to defend Israel are not working. This is not working. Public opinion has shifted.

A majority of opinion supports Albani. The same media sources that are trying

to rally support Fetanyahu over our own government, over our own prime minister

were defending Peter Dutton and supporting his election as prime minister in the May election. It had no

effect. There are uniform swings to Labor in every state in every electorate

in the country. So it has no I'm confident it has no effect on public opinion and it won't save the reputation

of Austral of Israel in Australia faced with the the scale the scale of this war

against civilians. None of the facts I've used in this interview can be disputed. Starvation is

being used as a weapon of war. At least 80% of housing has been demolished.

People are now with the entry of the IDF that Netanyahu has announced into Gaza

City being forced to transfer to the south of Gaza

a concentrated population that Israel will then seek. They've said it. They've

said it. They said they're negotiating with South Sudan in the most brutal,

inhumane, forced evacuation you could imagine. Do you think this media bias is driven by

lobbying pressure? I can't I can't comment on that. Um I

Is media bias driven by Zionist Lobbying?

can't comment on whether it's got its own momentum or whether it's being squeezed out of editors by a powerful lobby. I just

don't know. As a former journalist, what responsibility does the media have on reporting on serious issues such as the

genocide or the recognition of the Palestine state? Well, there's a lot I

can say about it, but I'd be I'd be kind to the media and and put it this way.

What's happening is on such a vast scale

that it's hard for the media to wrap its collective mind around it. The evidence

is there in abundance. When the Guardian newspaper was able to take photographs from a Jordanian helicopter

um or plane that was traveling over Gaza, it showed horizon to horizon

destruction. Now, can you devote a a front page every day

to it? Because that's what it deserves. But it's very hard for a news a news organization, a news medium that's got a

got local things happening, important things happening on a a national or

state agenda to give it the attention it deserves.

But as one Palestinian spokesperson said recently, I think it's the the theme of

his book, the day will come, the day will come when people

will be inventing a story about their opposition to this

thing because the day is going to come when this will be seen as a textbook

example of a genocide. There's a a book by someone who was to

become an American diplomat called The Problem from Hell, which was

a story of genocides in history in 20th century, mainly 20th century history.

And um this is going to be

a very big chapter carefully footnoted in a a future book about the nature of

genocides, but it's shaping up to be a a deeply heartbreaking one.

We grew up watching Albanesei as a loud and bold critic of Israel and an ardent protester and of Palestinian rights. as

Can you balance between diplomacy and being morally upright

prime minister. I mean, it seems that he's taken a back seat up until recently and he's argued that Australia is not a

major player. Uh, and he's tried to sort of tread a middle line to avoid upsetting sides. From your experience as

a politician, how do you balance the demands of diplomacy and the moral imperative of calling out injustice?

Well, I think you can do both. I don't think there's a conflict. I don't think there's a tension between us doing the

right thing and us building cooperative relationships about the Middle East with

like-minded countries. I think uh we should do what we can to expedite

movement in a common front with those countries that in uh recent

weeks have like us afforded diplomatic recognition.

I think we should be very active in our diplomacy talking to them. And in the

meantime, Albanesey's government deserves credit for voting last year in

the General Assembly on making Palestine a fullyfledged member of the General

Assembly of the UN. that goes further than what I was battling for uh when I

was foreign minister facing some opposition but with majority support of

the parliamentary party. Um so that was good and um banning the visit by racist

members of the Netany Netanyahu government that shows that we can think independently

and we're not going to be intimidated by the pressure of the Jewish lobbying in Australia. Do

you think the Albanese could or should do more in terms of protecting Palestinian civilians in this crisis?

Should Albanese be doing more?

Well, it's a matter of assessing where we are. This is moving very quickly. Uh only today when we're taping this

interview have we got Netanyahu saying we're going to go into Gaza City. So things are moving pretty fast. Um, and I

would I would think the horrors that are that are about to unfold

would justify are going to justify uh more collaboration

between us and like-minded nations. For example, the French Macron who's been

attacked as savagely by Netanyahu as Albanesei has been. I think uh we can

anticipate Australia being there in the front line. And by the way, I think I

think we talk about the march over the bridge. If there is what we suspect

there will be a drawn out war of attrition with genocidal features,

um I think uh I think it's very likely, no guarantees, but I think it's very

likely you're going to have marches against Israel double the size of what we saw over the bridge. given the

and the police and the organizers and the police should start talking now because

um we we we will burst the damn walls. Um people who felt inhibited about

turning out will turn out. We need a uh we need a parade route that can can

accommodate twice those who are walking over the bridge. We'll be with you. Um given the

international arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu over alleged war crimes that he's committing in Gaza,

Should Australia Arrest Netanyahu?

should he come to Australia? Do you think Australia should, you know, pursue arresting him should he come here?

We'd have no alternative uh but to arrest him. It's our obligation as a signary to the treaty and go to America.

America has not signed the treaty. America does not believe in an international criminal justice system.

Uh we do. We've signed. we'd be obligated to arrest him. Okay. And you think it's time for

Australia to impose some sanctions on Israel in response to what you and others have labeled and described as a

genocide in Gaza? And if so, what form should these sanctions take?

Should Australia start sanctioning Israel?

I think we would move with UN with the UN, although America would veto a

sanctions regime uh to the extent that it required Security Council approval.

Um but there's the option for the nations of the west, west Europeans and

others, Canada, New Zealand and ourselves um to make a decision. But this this is

the challenge. If a country is knowingly implementing a genocide,

uprooting civilians, sending them on on death marches, reducing the population

to one of walking corpses, expressing satisfaction that Palestinian

babies are dying and allowing the IDF to shoot at children,

then do we deal with it? Do we deal with the perpetrators of this as a normal

nation with normal diplomatic contacts? I don't think we can. And I think we'd

better start assessing the diplomatic options, including sanctions, and talking to like-minded countries about

how we would revise our relations with Israel, with Israel pursuing an open,

unabashed, indeed, one could say proud policy

of genocide against this exposed, vulnerable, wretchedly weakened civilian

What is your message in closing to the Australian Public?

population. Uh, in closing, uh, what's your message to the Australian public regarding a free Palestine?

The shift in Australian public opinion is just about complete. The Australian

people are appalled by the crimes of the Netanyahu government and they expect

Australia to react accordingly. Uh, you're looking at a a regime that through its behavior is rendering itself

a pariah state. Um, the sacrifices of the Palestinian people are extreme.

And this is this is about humanity. It's about the suffering of a little

Palestinian baby who who is howling, crying its its heart out because it

cannot get food. Honorable Bob Carr, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

===

<호주 내 이스라엘 로비의 실체와 가자지구의 비극: 밥 카 인터뷰 요약 및 평론>

1. 요약: 내부자가 고발하는 로비의 영향력과 제노사이드의 현장

<이스라엘 로비의 성격과 영향력> 밥 카 전 장관은 호주 내 <이스라엘-유대인 로비(Israel Jewish Lobby)>를 호주의 국익보다 이스라엘의 이익을 우선시하도록 설계된 <외국 영향력 공작(foreign influence operation)>이라고 규정한다. 그는 이 단체가 호주의 모든 주도(capital city)에 사무실을 두고 막대한 자금을 운용하며, 기부금을 조직화해 영향력을 행사하는 유일한 외국 로비 단체라고 지적한다. 과거 토니 버크(Tony Burke)와의 내각 논의 등을 인용하며, 정치 후원금이 이스라엘-팔레스타인 문제에 대한 투표권 행사에 영향을 미친다는 점을 시사한다. 이는 미국에서 친이스라엘 노선에 반대하는 의원에게 자금력을 동원해 대항마를 내세우는 방식과 유사한 민주주의의 왜곡이라고 비판한다.

<팔레스타인 문제에 대한 시각 변화> 과거 <이스라엘의 노동당 친구들(Labor Friends of Israel)>을 공동 창립하며 친이스라엘 인사로 분류되었던 밥 카는 점진적으로 입장을 선회했다. 결정적인 계기는 팔레스타인 사람들의 이야기를 알게 된 것과 이스라엘의 불법 정착촌 확장이었다. 그는 정착촌이 팔레스타인 국가 수립을 원천 봉쇄하기 위해 설계되었으며, 네타냐후 총리가 주장한 '두 국가 해법' 지지는 거짓말이었다고 폭로한다.

<가자지구 사태: 명백한 제노사이드> 현재 가자지구의 상황에 대해 그는 주저 없이 <제노사이드(genocide)>라는 표현을 사용한다. 주택의 80%를 파괴하고, 식량과 의약품 공급을 차단하며, 식수를 오염시키고 아이들을 저격하는 행위는 명백한 인구 말살 계획이라는 것이다. 그는 이스라엘군(IDF)이 민간인을 걷는 시체로 만들고 죽음의 행군을 강요하고 있다며, 이러한 가해자들을 정상적인 국가로 대우해서는 안 된다고 주장한다.

<호주 정부의 대응과 향후 과제> 밥 카는 앤서니 알바니지(Albanese) 총리가 팔레스타인 국가를 인정하고 이스라엘을 비판한 것에 대해 옹호한다. 네타냐후가 알바니지를 비난한 것은 근거 없는 비방이며, 오히려 알바니지의 결정은 영국, 프랑스, 캐나다 등 세계 주요국과 보조를 맞춘 것이라고 평가한다. 그는 호주가 국제형사재판소(ICC) 조약 가입국으로서, 만약 네타냐후가 호주를 방문한다면 그를 체포할 법적 의무가 있다고 강조한다. 또한, 이스라엘에 대한 제재(Sanctions)를 검토하고 정착촌 생산 물품에 대한 불매 운동 등을 통해 압박을 가해야 한다고 제언한다.

2. 평론: 외교적 관례를 깬 도덕적 고발

<내부 고발자로서의 무게감> 밥 카의 인터뷰가 갖는 가장 큰 힘은 그의 위치에서 비롯된다. 그는 단순한 활동가가 아니라 호주 외무장관과 뉴사우스웨일스 주총리를 역임한 주류 정치인 출신이다. 그가 내각 회의와 외교 현장에서 직접 경험한 로비의 압력 실태를 구체적인 사례(줄리아 길라드 내각 당시 UN 투표 기권 과정 등)를 들어 폭로한 것은 이스라엘 로비의 영향력에 대한 논의를 음모론의 영역에서 팩트의 영역으로 끌어올렸다. 이는 호주 정치권 내에서 쉬쉬하던 <돈과 외교 정책의 결탁>을 수면 위로 드러낸 용기 있는 행동이다.

<언어의 명료성과 도덕적 선명성> 외교관 출신들이 흔히 사용하는 모호한 수사를 배제하고 <제노사이드>, <계획된 살인>, <기아 전술>과 같은 직설적인 용어를 선택한 점이 돋보인다. 특히 알렉스 리브친(Alex Ryvchin) 등 유대인 커뮤니티 지도부의 비난에 대해 위축되지 않고, 오히려 그들이 전쟁 범죄를 옹호하고 있다며 역으로 강하게 비판하는 태도는 인상적이다. 이는 이스라엘 비판을 반유대주의(Anti-Semitism)로 몰아가는 기존의 프레임이 더 이상 작동하지 않음을 보여주는 상징적인 장면이다.

<여론의 변화와 민주주의의 회복> 밥 카는 언론의 편향적인 보도에도 불구하고 호주 대중의 여론이 이미 돌아섰음을 확신한다. 이는 로비 단체의 자금력과 정치적 압박이 대중의 도덕적 판단까지 통제할 수는 없음을 시사한다. 그가 제시한 <소비자로서의 권리 행사(불매운동)>와 <시민 불복종(대규모 시위)>은 정치적 교착 상태를 타개할 시민 사회의 역할을 강조한 것이다.

<결론> 밥 카의 증언은 호주뿐만 아니라 서방 세계 전반에 걸쳐 이스라엘-팔레스타인 문제를 바라보는 시각이 근본적으로 변화하고 있음을 보여준다. 그의 발언은 맹목적인 동맹 관계보다 <국제법 준수>와 <인권 보호>라는 보편적 가치가 외교의 중심에 서야 한다는 강력한 메시지를 전달한다. 과거의 <명예로운 이방인(honourable gentile)>이 현재 가장 강력한 비판자가 되었다는 사실 자체가, 이스라엘의 정책이 얼마나 도덕적 임계점을 넘었는지를 방증한다.

제안하는 다음 단계

밥 카 전 장관이 언급한 **<호주 정부의 팔레스타인 국가 인정과 관련된 구체적인 법적/외교적 조건들>**이나, 인터뷰에서 언급된 **<국제형사재판소(ICC)의 네타냐후 체포 영장이 호주와 같은 가입국에 미치는 구체적인 효력>**에 대해 더 자세히 조사해 드릴까요?

이 문서는 OnePath Network가 2025년 8월 22일 공개한 인터뷰(전 호주 외무장관 밥 카) 스크립트다. 핵심은 카가 “호주 내 이스라엘-유대 로비”를 <외국 영향력 작전>에 가깝다고 규정하며, 호주의 대(對)이스라엘·팔레스타인 정책이 국내 공론의 토론보다 로비 압력과 정치자금 논리에 의해 왜곡돼 왔다고 주장하는 데 있다.